Joined: Jul 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 11,321 Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Thread Started on Jun 25, 2009, 10:01pm »
So as I'm sure some of you know, and others of you DON'T know (since it's not quite reached international news status just yet!), there's been quite a controversy as of late surrounding Japanese "eroge", or "erotic games". Namely, thanks to all the pinko puritans in the U.S., Japan is being forced to censor themselves now!
The long and the short of it is, there was a huge controversy on the American Amazon Marketplace surrounding a seller who had imported and attempted to peddle a Japanese eroge titled "Rapelay". Yes, its name is apparently apt, as it's reputed to be a (not especially horrific compared to other eroge) rape/incest simulation game (which is also apparently not all that good, even within that rather shady subgenre).
Yes, yes, we all know that's horrible... but it's legal in Japan, and it's all done with animated characters, so no one was actually harmed in its making, and Amazon Marketplace has MUCH, MUCH WORSE MATERIAL still being sold. Probably because of the blatant name, however, Amazon received numerous complaints, and ultimately deemed Rapelay unfit for sale... so the game was removed.
Well, this kind of blew up into a huge controversy, with American women's rights groups essentially attacking Japan's porn industry and demanding that something be done about these tasteless (yet entirely harmless) games. And to everyone's surprise, Japan actually DID do something about it... the diet conducted talks with the eroge industry, and the eroge industry elected to censor itself.
Now, the fact that the eroge industry is censoring itself, rather than BEING censored, is very cool... but it's not exactly a unanimous decision, and many more reputable eroge companies (the ones who create deep story-driven romance games that happen to involve and graphically depict consensual and meaningful sex, rather than straight-up rape simulators) are basically being forced to limit their content to an almost absurd degree, lest it be rejected from store shelves.
Some of those are understandable, but group sex? Pregnancy? Bondage? Impregnation? Those aren't exactly damaging concepts. Hell, the latter is kind of necessary for the continuation of the human species. (:
Anyway, this brings me to the point of this post. One of the MOST reputable eroge developers, Minori - creators of the "ef" games, and renown for their artistic and emotionally gripping tales of love and circumstance, with unmatchably gorgeous character and background art contributed by anime art legend Makoto Shinkai, the man behind Voices of a Distant Star, The Place Promised In Our Early Days, and 5 Centimeters Per Second - has decided to take a stand.
I respect Minori a great deal, and I respect them even more after reading this. Whether or not you like or approve of the full spectrum of eroge, there's no denying that this is a clear incursion of Japanese freedom of speech, and it's essentially MY COUNTRY'S FAULT. Our puritanical do-gooders meddled in Japan's affairs, and got their way... and now, companies that seek to create legitimate artistic works of an erotic/adult nature are at risk of losing their livelihood as a result.
I doubt there's much good we can do at this point, but I wanted to support Minori in their efforts, as I truly do applaud what they're doing, and I hope that they're able to solicit enough support from fans to get this overturned, and return things to the status quo, before these anti-pornography measures are taken too far.
So yes... spread the word, write a letter or an email, or do whatever else you can. These are the kinds of minor injustices that can lead to much greater trouble, and these sorts of things need to be kept at bay while they're small, before they balloon into insane laws and unmitigated censorship.
And for those who are still not convinced that this is a battle worth fighting... I give you some sage advice from, of all people, respected comic book author and novelist Neil Gaiman:
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #3 on Jun 26, 2009, 3:02am »
EXACTLY
@_@
I don't dig eroges actually, but TYPE-MOON is an exception! Their novels, and even other games like Melty Blood, must not be interfered by this blatant show of stupidity.
Not to mention, I highly respect all of those other companies who worked on games like Clannad etc., as well. I didn't play them, but I heard so many amazing things about them. They musn't restrain themselves.
Daggers and Wingboots, Mantras and Monsters Await You!
Joined: Mar 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 869 Location: Alpharetta, GA
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #4 on Jun 26, 2009, 7:17am »
My fiancee is Japanese and she's told me before something interesting in that even though a lot of this type of content in Japan is considered sick, twisted or perverted it does one very important thing very well: It keeps various dark tendencies of would be predators in check and in many ways it is legal in order to prevent people from crossing the line into illegal territory and actually hurting a person. Apparently Japan does recognize that there is a problem with stuff like this, lolita and moe stuff, but many games are indeed made with that audience in mind as a means of appeasing the tastes of people who might go overboard and actually do something illegal. Matter of fact, apparently even though dark tendencies like this exist over there (and elsewhere besides Japan, I'm not trying to single Japan out) apparently the community of individuals that are into this sort of thing look down on those who might actually cross the line into illegal territory and classify them as cowards.
So, in short, it is a bad idea for the U.S. to try to think they know what they are doing and trying to fix someone else's culture. They don't understand that their actions may actually end up making a worse situation for Japan.
But then, we're Americans! We're a Super Power! And we've had a country of absolute badasses for what, 235 years now! That's more than every other country in the world! Right? Right!? We know what we doing...
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #5 on Jun 26, 2009, 7:43am »
...Wouldn't the saner option for the US have been to simply ban such games from entering their borders? (True that's never deterred anyone who's really determined, but.... :'D) It just seems... very bleh to go about imposing one's own morals and subverting others' viewpoints just because... one's own country, an ocean away is full of offended people. Kind of like how... well, if I tried to import an eroge game here and they figured out what it was, well, I'd pretty much end up in jail (with I think that out dated 70 strikes with a whip punishment of something...? D': )
I can also kind of really relate to what SkyeWelse is saying. Since such things are extra, extra taboo over here, one finds the most frustrated and obnoxious men leering at any... well... anything that can walk and move over here! And some of the most heinous crimes. ...But then again, you find such crimes all over the world. Still, the extra banning of the stuffs does always tend to have a more negative effect than positive.
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #7 on Jun 26, 2009, 1:25pm »
SkyeWelse: Actually, kiyuki showed me the other day a very interesting statistics about rape and many other things in Japan. And guess what: Japan is the country with LEAST of all that in the WORLD (while ironically the US was among the tops <_< ignorant pinko puritans). We both were "wowed" and both of us seriously assumed it was what you just said, and wow, it seems we really were right... Good to know! That's a point to be spread everywhere!
I feel a bit powerleess, because I don't know what else I can do besides spreading the message. I need a few leads...! That may not require too much japanese knowledge, I mean, which is hard.
Also: this is so extremely sudden, out of the blue. It makes no sense.
Joined: Nov 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,918 Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #8 on Jun 26, 2009, 1:58pm »
That is absolutely... absurd!
It is America messing with other people's business ONCE again, and I'm sorry that is foolish. Obviously other, American, members of the forum disike it as well, and I agree with you. It is just plain stupid.
"In this world, is the destiny of man kind controlled by some transcendental entity or law? Is it like the hand of God hovering above? At least it is true, that man has no control, even over his own will."
...Wouldn't the saner option for the US have been to simply ban such games from entering their borders? (True that's never deterred anyone who's really determined, but.... :'D) It just seems... very bleh to go about imposing one's own morals and subverting others' viewpoints just because... one's own country, an ocean away is full of offended people. :-/
Exactly. Japan didn't ask for any "censorship help" from the US so people should just back off.
Isn't nudity allowed on TV in Europe and stuff? Are these crazy American groups going to start screaming and flailing at that too?
People just have it in their heads that "OMG, kids are going to start emulating what they play in real life!!!1111"
Like, fuck. Only a really TINY percentage of stupid children (and teens and adults) will act out their damn fantasies in real life. Why cause grief for the majority?
Joined: Nov 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,918 Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #12 on Jun 27, 2009, 10:40am »
A note I posted on Facebook, to start a discussion. People might notice that my opinions on certain subjects have changed (especially Wyrdwad)
Recently a new kind of terror has befallen America, and that terror is me. You see, this week Japan's freedom of speech has been limited beyond what it ever should be. The reasoning? It is no longer free. You see, eroge (or EROtic GAmes spoken with Japanese phonetics) has been a longstanding genre of video games in Japan, and is honestly a larger part of video game history than I'd care to admit. Afterall, erotica is something important to literature and art, another subject I'd rather not admit, but it is so.
Rape (including various terms for it) • Loli (lolita) • Gang Rape • Sexual violence • Cruel sexual play • Reverse rape • Shoujo • Adultery • Reverse sexual violence • Forced • Group sex • School council • Bestiality • Bondage • Threats • Train groping • Compensated dating • Incest • Torture • Heavy bondage • Pregnant • Slave • Pregnant woman • Imprisonment • Impregnation
Those are the words that will soon be banned by the Diet from use in the forms of images, written text, including story, dialogue, hidden words, and apparently anything else possible in any video game.
This all started when people complained about the game Rapelay being available for purchase off of the Amazon Marketplace, when much worse items were available. Basically, people found out that this game had rape in it, and you played the character performing it, pulled it off the website and then started their hunt on all remnants of the genre in Japan
I for one do not play these games. However, many people do. Furthermore, many people make their money off of these games. But even so, that isn't the point. The point is, that is about every pornographic subject I can think of, save for straight up cock to cunt sex. Okay, that was vulgar.
Anyways, while I do not play these games I do play violent video games, sometimes very violent video games with haunting horrific imagery. Now, in these cases it is usually stylized in some form, but that doesn't change the fact. This brings up my question though:
I play these games. Am I a murderer?
The answer is a big ol' underlined "NO" It truly is that simple! The people who play these games, and the ones who make these games are not rapists! The thing is that allowing developers to create these games, while limiting what they can do is the same way as giving me a word limit for every day.* It is plain to see that everyone should be allowed to write whatever they want, and that you cannot stop their opinions. Simply put: stfu or gtfo. I think everyone should be equal and I have very strong opinions on certain subjects. I may not like the way you think, but I cannot stop it, and should thus embrace it.
But you say "Embrace it? Why would I do that!"
The answer is simple. Because you can do nothing else. Simply, take whatever they have to say and look at the bright side
In this case the bright side means that Japan is among the lowest ranking countries in terms of sex crimes. Now, this doesn't change the fact that they happen. I've heard stories of women being groped on the train, so they have another section for women who'd rather not be felt up. However, I think this low statistic has something to do with the idea that there is porn everywherein Japan. It isn't as much of a taboo there as it is here or America.
I seem to recall in the 1980 miniseries adaptation of James Clavell's Shogun Blackthorne ends up bathing with one of the Japanese characters. Later that night, he sleeps with the same lady. Or, so he thought. You see, the one he had bathed with sent somebody in to him as a friendly gift. He took it as a betrayal, and this is an important difference between American-Western and Japanese-Eastern culture.
She said that people were around one another, that they shouldn't hide themselves, and as such shouldn't hide those things as secrets. Everyone does it.
He thought along the lines of this: It is a dirty thing, and should be a secret thing.
People have fetishes. People like these things. Some people like to watch rape, and others like to watch lolicon (child pornography in the form of animation). Well, if you let people write these things. If you let people publish these things. If you let people lay these things maybe one less person would be raped. Maybe someone's wishes would be fulfilled from watching alone.
The other thing to note is that there is some respectable eroge out there. Type-Moon is a Japanese doujin (literally means "people with the same interest") developer who created the two famous visual novel (novels accompanied by choices, sounds, and text, presented in the form of a video game) series Tsukihime, and Fate/Stay Night. These games do include the sex scenes, but also include well developed plots and characters. And, what rape there is in the game always leads to the bad endings. The canonical sex is always well-meaning, consensual, and in the name of love.
So, why should Type-Moon limit their stories because of some Neo-Feminests who want to stop self-expression and the creation of art? Why should games be taken off the shelves when the same subject matter can be found elsewhere? Why should video games be the scapegoat once again for any type of vile activity perfomed by a human? And lastly, why should American Neo-Feminists stick their noses into Japans business and freedom of speech?
*And anyone who knows me would know that wouldn't be any fun at all
"In this world, is the destiny of man kind controlled by some transcendental entity or law? Is it like the hand of God hovering above? At least it is true, that man has no control, even over his own will."
Joined: Nov 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,918 Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #14 on Jun 27, 2009, 11:01am »
Well, I posted it to start a discussion. I was very tempted to answer a lot of the questions (especially the last ones) but that would have disallowed for talk between readers. I'll actually edit it here for more readability.
"In this world, is the destiny of man kind controlled by some transcendental entity or law? Is it like the hand of God hovering above? At least it is true, that man has no control, even over his own will."
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 757 Location: No snow here. EVER. ;;
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #15 on Jun 27, 2009, 3:19pm »
I don't really have anything substantial to contribute to this topic; I just think it absolutely asinine that foreign ignorance is effecting policy in Japan. And some of the terms in that list were hardly the most risque or even kinkiest of things to decide need to be shielded from our poor virgin eyes. I have a serious problem with authority telling me what is and isn't okay for me to look at. Not that I've ever played an eroge, but the point remains. Scapegoating the media before pointing blame anywhere else and protecting the public from anything "questionable" ... it just don't fly in book. It's the damned media "protection" responsible for the downfall of American society, I think. It's absolute garbage, and it's really sad that it's spreading beyond our borders.
... I realized I did play the demo of Katawa Shoujo, I suppose that is [going to be] an eroge once it's done. Hmm. *shrug*
Joined: Jun 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 744 Location: Sao Paulo, SP
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #16 on Jun 27, 2009, 5:40pm »
I'll contribute just by saying I think this whole situation is absurd and I hope Japanese autorities go back on their decision.
I never played those games, but I think that here it's a matter of principles. The greatest thing about the USA, in my opinion, is the freedom of expression, and I think it's really a shame that a puritan minority should cause something like that to happen, something that goes against the very heart of this ideal.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 472 Location: Connecticut
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #17 on Jun 27, 2009, 6:34pm »
Quote:
Exactly. Japan didn't ask for any "censorship help" from the US so people should just back off.
Last time I checked Japan isn't getting any censorship help. America doesn't have any authority over Japan, America isn't making any laws over in Japan. The American government isn't even involved. In Japan wants to fold under the pressure like a bunch of pussies, that is their fault, not the fault of the United States. So how about we all shut the fuck up with the America bashing
Quote:
People have fetishes. People like these things. Some people like to watch rape, and others like to watch lolicon (child pornography in the form of animation). Well, if you let people write these things. If you let people publish these things. If you let people lay these things maybe one less person would be raped. Maybe someone's wishes would be fulfilled from watching alone.
Look I'm all for porn. But you are crossing a line with that. I really don't care what is going on, as long as it's between consenting adults. There is no justification for child porn, or rape, and allowing it, is not going to prevent it. After you've watched porn, and you've taken care of business, do feel less like actually having sex? Do you think yourself that you don't need a girl, since you can watch it instead? No, it only teases you. Stimulating the desires of these pervents is not preventing crime.
Quote:
...Wouldn't the saner option for the US have been to simply ban such games from entering their borders?
America doesn't ban games. We have freedom of speech here. Most games that are banned aren't because of sex or violence, but because they portray the government poorly. Before you guys attack America, take a look at the reasons games are banned some of your countries.
Re: Freedom of speech, Japan, and porn « Reply #19 on Jun 27, 2009, 8:17pm »
Banned games are one thing, censored another. xD Censorship has always been ridiculous in the USA. (And since US-localized/made games are the ones that gets distributed all over America, other countries also have to put with it, consequently.) (By the way, now that you brought up banning, if the USA decides to ban/not to bring a game due to something regarding its content, said game won't be distributed elsewhere in America, even in countries that otherwise would not have "excluded" it.)
Like back in the day when a NES (or whatever) game had a cross depicted somewhere or something: those were ALWAYS removed. =_=' Pretty idiotic. (Must have been the work of some puritans or something as well, I assume?) Aside images, scripts always got censored, too. There have also been many other laughable cases, but luckily things got a little less strict as time passed. ... Well, at least until recently. >_>
People have fetishes. People like these things. Some people like to watch rape, and others like to watch lolicon (child pornography in the form of animation). Well, if you let people write these things. If you let people publish these things. If you let people lay these things maybe one less person would be raped. Maybe someone's wishes would be fulfilled from watching alone.
Look I'm all for porn. But you are crossing a line with that. I really don't care what is going on, as long as it's between consenting adults. There is no justification for child porn, or rape, and allowing it, is not going to prevent it. After you've watched porn, and you've taken care of business, do feel less like actually having sex? Do you think yourself that you don't need a girl, since you can watch it instead? No, it only teases you. Stimulating the desires of these pervents is not preventing crime.
That's what most of us would think, and it's kind of natural to follow that line of logic, but statistics (read: proof) have shown it's the other way around. And to further support it, Skye's fiancee, who is japanese, confirmed it. o_o' (Of course, if you really doubt me or whatever, I can see if kiuyki still has its link.)
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