korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Jun 28, 2010 20:21:41 GMT -5
Since I'm not at all sure that I will continue this run, I decided to upload the final speedrun-related glitch for Ys II, skipping the entry scene to Solomon Shrine. Details are in the video description. As I said earlier, if anyone else wants to, you're welcome to work on this. I might someday, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon.
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Post by Skeletore has a boner on Aug 3, 2010 9:47:37 GMT -5
I'm going to be hosting/participating in a (live) chairty speedrun later this year, and decided I'm going to try a Ys game.
Just anecdotally what do you guys think the fastest Ys game one could speedrun is? (any Ys game, any system version).
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Post by Skeletore has a boner on Aug 3, 2010 10:09:18 GMT -5
Edited "you" to "one" cause I realized I was asking the wrong question ;0
Still never played PS2 version of YS3, should sometime, but meant what is the (in absolute terms) fastest Ys game one can take to completion(of any of them). Appreciate the advice regardless ;0
I imagine it's probably 1 or 2, since the series has really only gotten longer over-time, but like the Ys 2 complete vs eternal thing, wondering what the actual fastest possible version would be(or if it's an entirely different game in the series).
Mainly a concern cause due to being heavily anemic I have issues concentrating for any extended period of time, so want to practice the fastest possible game.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Aug 3, 2010 14:46:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd have to say either Ys I or II would likely be the fastest. Between the two, I'd guess Ys I (Complete version) would be the faster one, simply because there's less cutscenes than in Ys II, and also less leveling to do. The only real downside is that the bosses can easily wipe you out under-leveled (Jenocres) or without armor (Darm Tower bosses). My best time (in segments) is 38:31, though with the use of a couple of bugs, and better optimization, it could be a bit shorter. Even with mistakes, you could likely easily get under an hour. Ys II (again, Complete version, although Eternal does have the upper hand with those two glitches mentioned a few posts above) would probably be easier, but as mentioned above, probably a little bit longer. Still, the bosses are a bit easier under-leveled, at least up until Zava (unless you use the aforementioned glitch). Dalles, especially, is difficult without armor. I don't have a best time for this yet, but I'm guessing that my run would be about 45-50 minutes, so getting under an hour is likely very possible. EDIT: Hmm, actually, the Sega Master System version of Ys I might be ultimately faster, if you can find a way to reliably manipulate this glitch ( Youtube, Forum link). As for my own Ys II run, I think I will try and continue, but unless I manage to satisfactorily progress past the segment where Gelaldy's defeated, there's probably not much hope of me finishing it. Getting to that point will likely be a real pain, but if I can get that far, that should be enough motivation to see it through to the end. So, until I reach that point (if I reach it), I won't be posting anything more regarding that run (unless someone asks, of course), except to probably post completed segments to the first post.
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Post by Skeletore has a boner on Aug 6, 2010 14:26:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice, I'll play around with a couple versions and see which I like.
If the time difference is less than 10min I might just go for complete just cause it's prettier for an audience to watch ;0
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Aug 6, 2010 21:20:50 GMT -5
I think probably the only way you could have a time difference upward of 10 minutes would be with the SMS version of Ys I via the Pim glitch, and even that might be pushing it, as that seems to be only pre-Darm Tower (I'm just guessing, as I've never played that version). Even abusing the Druegar and Zava glitches in Ys II Eternal, you'd probably skip no more than 5 minutes over Complete (again, I have no true estimate).
By the way, is this going to be done via live streaming, or something of the sort? Regardless of which game and version you end up doing, I'd be interested to see what comes of it.
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Post by Skeletore has a boner on Aug 7, 2010 23:08:43 GMT -5
Yeah, it's going to be streamed live, aiming for december.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Sept 23, 2010 16:40:05 GMT -5
Well, not much with the Ys II run (what a surprise, huh? XD). I do have another attempt uploaded (I'll update the first post soon), but I doubt I'll keep it. Since that's taking so long (between 3,000 - 4,000 attempts, I believe...), I'm thinking of working on an improvement to the Ys I run in the meantime, as a side-project for when Ys II gets too stressful. I'm still trying to get all the details sorted out, but it basically has to do with whether or not the Feena EXP bugs (2nd and 3rd paragraphs of this post) will be of use, as well as implementing the other known improvements. One idea is to get the Long Sword, abuse the glitches to be at level 7 before Nygtilger, but also to kill some enemies in the mine. If I had simply killed the other mine enemies in my path in my first run, I think I could've had ~16,000 EXP at the Darm Key chest, instead of ~11,000. Being level 7 before Nygtilger and killing more enemies would put me around ~21,500 EXP. However, that 5,500 EXP difference between the methods can be made up rather fast on the mantises at level 8 (~20 seconds, I think?). Failing that, I could always go with the basic idea of the first run (except kill more enemies), but I think at least one use of both Feena glitches would still help. So, basically, it's a matter of how fast are the Feena glitches, and how much should they be abused? Vagullion on upwards, I don't think the run will change, aside from minor optimizations. I suppose I should ask, aside from what's indicated in my current run comments, are there any other suggestions for improvement? One very minor one I know of is to eat the Roda Seed as the screen's transitioning to the close-up view of the Roda Tree, in order to avoid manually clearing the item's text boxes (still need to talk to the tree twice for the text speed glitch). Another one is to use the "item warp" glitch (use a Wing while opening certain chests), except it's a fair deal easier than in Ys II. The current spots I'm thinking of using this are: the Books of Ys after Nygtilger/Vagullion, and the Roda Seed chest. I also wanted to use it for the Golden Pedestal, but that does not seem possible. Anyway, if I do this, I'll probably upload to the first post, but the topic title's already full, so there probably won't be any indication of its progress. EDIT: Probably not going to bother with this after all. The best case scenario seems like to get the Long Sword, abuse the glitches 3-4 times (3,500/4,500 extra EXP), and be level 7 before Nygtilger (he goes down faster with the Long Sword at that level). Since the Sapphire Ring sidequest is needed to get the Long Sword, the time gain from a faster Nygtilger battle is only a couple of seconds. Additionally, abusing the Feena EXP glitches seems to only amount to a 8 or 4 second gain if used 3 or 4 times, respectively; using each one once seems to be a waste, since killing the mantises can easily make up that EXP. This is, of course, assuming my calculations are correct: - Feena rescued (1st attempt) = 240 frames (~8 seconds) - Feena not rescued (1st attempt) = 210 frames (~7 seconds) - Feena rescued (2nd+ attempt) = 244 frames (~8 seconds) - Feena not rescued (2nd+ attempt) = 115 frames (~4 seconds) - ~2,000 EXP to Nygtilger with Short Sword (1,500 Feena, 500 enemies; enemies unaffected on floor 3) - ~3,300 EXP to Nygtilger with Long Sword (1,500 Feena, 1,800 enemies) - Mantis x 2 (Lvl. 7) = 155 frames (~5 seconds) - Mantis x 2 (Lvl. 8) = 70 frames (~2.5 seconds) *- ~12,900 EXP at Mantises (Nygtilger Lvl. 5, ~1,750 EXP) = ~2:09.5 seconds + 8 second Feena abuse (1st attempt) = ~2:17.5 total seconds - ~18,500 EXP at Mantises (Nygtilger Lvl. 5, ~1,820 EXP) = ~1:48.5 seconds + 8 second Feena abuse (1st attempt) = ~1:56.5 total seconds - ~19,940 EXP at Mantises (Nygtilger Lvl. 6, ~3,260 EXP) = ~1:43 seconds + 15 second Feena abuse (2nd attempt) = ~1:58 total seconds - ~23,930 EXP at Mantises (Nygtilger Lvl. 7, ~6,400 EXP) = ~1:29.5 seconds + 19/23 second Feena abuse (3rd/4th attempt) = ~1:48.5/~1:52.5 total seconds * = My current run. The calculation right below that is how it probably should've turned out instead. Also, those times don't take into consideration the final two knight kills. EDIT 2: Hmm, since there's potentially a ~25-29 second improvement between the "best case scenario" and the current run's leveling (might be slightly less, because of the extra enemy kills), I might work on this improvement after all. After all, by simply killing more enemies in the previous route, I think that would've amounted to a ~20 second improvement (again, maybe slightly less). So, if all goes well, the total improvements could add up to about 1 minute faster. Besides, I think the only way to be sure is to actually do it.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Sept 30, 2010 22:45:20 GMT -5
Hmm, this is odd. My best segment 1 attempt so far is only a second slower than my old run, but it's still improvable by a few more seconds, I think. Now I know the old run had a couple of small errors that segment, but how is it that I can beat that attempt, when this time around, I'm taking an extra ~13 seconds to do the Sapphire Ring sidequest...? And something similar happened when I first started attempting the Ys II run on the older computer. When I upgraded, my segment times started noticeably improving by about ~10-15 seconds, despite the route not changing. I guess it's just as well that I'm doing this improvement after all... EDIT: Ah, it seems part of the reason is because I didn't buy the Mirror just yet (not enough gold), which took me ~4 seconds last time. Still, that doesn't quite add up; I guess maybe that segment wasn't as polished as I thought (granted, it was a while ago, and I've improved a little since then, but not a lot). EDIT 2: Oops, made a calculation error before. I'm currently ~4 seconds away from the original time, not 1. In light of that, I probably won't be able to beat the older time, but can get pretty close. Still, it's quite surprising that, even with the Sapphire Ring sidequest, I'm still so close to it.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Oct 9, 2010 16:57:52 GMT -5
Another one is to use the "item warp" glitch (use a Wing while opening certain chests), except it's a fair deal easier than in Ys II. The current spots I'm thinking of using this are: the Books of Ys after Nygtilger/Vagullion, and the Roda Seed chest. I also wanted to use it for the Golden Pedestal, but that does not seem possible. Thanks to what I assumed to be a failed segment attempt, I have discovered that the "item warp" glitch can in fact be used when getting the Golden Pedestal. Using this glitch, the event doesn't appear to activate at all (it probably does, it just seems otherwise), which normally happens at least a little bit when doing the glitch with other scenes. That leads to another interesting glitch, being able to obtain and sell the Golden Pedestal as much as you want, at least until you get it the "normal" way (see video here). I don't think that aspect will be of any use to my speedrun, though. But it's strange, because most events seem to need to reach a certain "trigger point" before its intended effect is actually accomplished, which in this case, I had assumed to be the "item obtained" message (hence why it didn't seem possible before). Well, at least it's possible, so that's another 4-5 seconds shaved from the old run. I just hope it doesn't make the segment too much harder (you need to be precise). I should note that none of this seems to apply to the "Eternal" version of Ys I, just the "Complete" (and possibly "Chronicles") version. EDIT: Ok, that is one weird side-effect... It appears that after performing the "item warp" with the Golden Pedestal, the mouse cursor will be invisible on the main screen (not the close-ups, or the subscreens), but it can still be used. This peculiar effect wears off when you get the Golden Pedestal the "normal" way, or when you use the first teleport statue in the Shrine.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Dec 5, 2010 17:45:56 GMT -5
For now, I wanted to share a really peculiar glitch I came across today while trying to figure out the fastest path to take for grinding outside the Bell Tower. It's not shown, but this happened shortly after leveling up (from a Charlont (mage), I believe). This is strictly speculation on my part, but I'm guessing that the level-up took place just before the final blow on the Balkilea (knight), effectively overriding it, and allowing me to push through the enemy as if it had just been killed. In any case, I doubt this has any use for a speedrun, especially since everything returns to normal after exiting the screen, but it's too odd not to share. Figured out what causes this glitch a little while ago (don't mind that link, it's dead - here's the new link). Basically, what you need to do is level up at the exact moment an enemy deals a lethal blow to you. If you try this with the "Fire" magic, chances are that the fireball will hit too late, resulting in Adol being locked in his death animation (not an official "game over", even though you can't move - but you can still recover HP, provided you're in the proper area XD). Anyway, I think this glitch occurs because it's supposed to technically be "game over" (where enemies will walk right over your body, still trying to attack XD), but the level up lets you survive. While this will make it so Adol can pass through enemies/NPCs unharmed, some events will still activate, provided it's not from direct interaction with an NPC (I think - not entirely sure on the details). To get rid of this, just go to a new map screen, and everything will be normal again. So far, there's only one place I know of that this would be useful - bypassing the rock golems guarding the Staff of Divinity. As mentioned above, going to a new map screen will set things right again, but I'm trying to see if this will carry over through a screen transition, by making the enemy's "deathblow" propel me to another screen. If the effects carry over, I'm hoping it'll be possible to enter the Subterranean Canal without Dalles changing me into a demon, which would save some time (but seeing as how this event doesn't seem to involve direct NPC interaction, I'm guessing it won't work). In any case, I don't think I'll restart the run for getting the Staff of Divinity early. It's already a bit of a pain to pull off, plus it'd mess up the leveling. EDIT: Seems like Adol will only be stuck in his death animation if the level up comes too late - for instance, Adol dies, but a fireball hits the enemy shortly after, restoring his HP during his death animation. Also, I think I will restart the run (not right away, though). I'm not very far, and I can't seem to make satisfactory progress currently, so I don't think it'll be much of a problem (plus, a couple of earlier mistakes I want to omit). I will need to change the route to get the Short Sword from Legth, however, otherwise I won't have enough gold for the Talwar. I'll still level in the Ruins of Moondoria, but just to be able to do decent damage in the Rasteenie Mine, where level 11 should be good for Velagunder (probably twice as long/painful, but leveling to 12 takes a few seconds longer than the time saved there). EDIT 2: It seems as though having an enemy's "deathblow" propel me to another map screen doesn't carry over the "no hit detection" (thankfully - that was a real pain to get right, even once).
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Post by cercia on Jan 11, 2011 14:03:45 GMT -5
What is a speedrun?
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Jan 11, 2011 15:21:31 GMT -5
A speedrun is basically playing through (running) a game as fast as possible, by whatever means the game allows without using cheats/cheat devices (glitches are different, since they're already in the game, although probably unintentionally). There are runs of a bunch of games on these two sites: Speed Demos Archive ("normal"/unassisted speedruns) TASVideos (tool-assisted speedruns - aka, playing the game frame by frame via an emulator to get the best possible results) I admit that the Ys games don't lend themselves too well to speedrunning since they're pretty linear (though there are certainly far worse choices), but it's still something I wanted to give a try. At this point, I should mention that I don't think I can bring myself to complete the run of Ys II, or the re-run of Ys I. It has just stopped being fun for me, so I'll probably let these projects die. I may work on them again in the future, but I have a hard time seeing it happen. We'll see what happens, I guess, but for now, I have to stop. Once again, if anyone wants to work on these in my place, feel free (but not obligated). At the least, I'd be willing to still help plan for a run, just not actually running it.
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Post by cercia on Jan 11, 2011 19:33:00 GMT -5
Yeah I know. The warp staff springs to mind...
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Jul 27, 2011 17:23:22 GMT -5
I don't know if anyone's heard (or cares =p), but Windows TASes (tool-assisted speedruns) are now becoming a possibility, but it's still in the early stages: tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8750There's a number of issues (see nitsuja's last post on page 14 for more details), but for these games (well, I've only tested Ys I so far), it seems like the main issues are a current lack of mouse support, and the opening movie doesn't play (it's just skipped), which isn't too much of an issue, but seems to result in a loss of audio afterwards (it seems to still work when loading from a savestate). There's some other minor stuff, such as the audio not sounding quite as good as normal, and the screen kind of ripples a little when scrolling. Still, it seems as though at least Ys I is probably able to be TASed to completion with the current Hourglass setup (the main issue being a lack of audio), although any attempts would be slightly unoptimized just from not using the mouse. Anyway, I'm bringing this up in case anyone has an interest in TASing the Windows games. I don't know if I'll try and create a TAS or not. While it seems theoretically easier than making a "perfect" speed run on my own, I don't know that I can deal with playing fast-paced games at slow speeds, not to mention having to do re-records for optimization purposes. I'm just starting to get the hang of optimizing the text boxes (harder than it sounds), but I don't know if I'll mess around beyond that.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Mar 20, 2012 16:50:05 GMT -5
Gonna start streaming some of my speedrun attempts, see if that helps keep me motivated any (yes, I'm still working on them - progress is as slow as ever). Generally, I expect to be going live anytime from 2:00 - 11:00 PM (US Central time), but no more than a few hours a day, I expect. So, if anyone wants to, stop by and pay a visit sometime. Honestly, I think Ys I & II attempts may eventually get boring for the viewers, so I may do single-segment (SS) attempts of the games from time to time, or do a Ys Origin SS any% run with Yunica (just for fun, I've no plans to officially work on a YsO run at the moment - if you're interested, Shiden is planning a segmented 100% run, though he's waiting for the Steam release to resume attempts); for now, I'm going to focus on Ys I, maybe restart Ys II if the current Ys I segment is too stressful (it's a tough one, for sure). (One note, the quality isn't the greatest, as to stream and record properly at the same time, I need to use a webcam (inverted colors bug for all screen capture programs, save Fraps). Potentially, I can stream YsO pretty good (via XSplit screen capture) - the only issue is I'm not very comfortable with the laptop's keyboard, and am instead most precise with the other PC's keyboard.) Oh, I guess I should point out that the first 2 segments of the Ys I re-run have been uploaded to the original post. I actually did that a few months ago, and will likely continue to silently do it as they're finished, unless there's something to respond to/post about here (I'm doing it this way both because I'm uncertain of whether the runs will be finished and don't want to give false hope, and discussion is pretty much non-existant these days anyway). Questions about the run/route choices are of course welcome, but please read the video descriptions first. Also, if for some reason you're going to watch the old segments, be sure to turn your volume down first. =p
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Shiden
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Post by Shiden on Mar 20, 2012 20:57:14 GMT -5
Go Korzic go!
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Mar 26, 2012 21:12:02 GMT -5
Well, damn. I was getting annoyed with the current Ys I segment, so I decided to get the re-testing of Ys II done to incorporate the walk through rock golems glitch (something I really didn't want to do, as there are a few variables to consider, and it's a pain to test the different combinations "properly").
The glitch initially saves about 1 minute, since I'd do it at the transition to level 4 instead of needing to get to level 6 to get the staff (sanctuary/mine enemies are too slow to kill lower than level 4), but that time gain eventually evens out, due to the various enemies needing more hits. I had hoped that some of that time could be saved, but it seems about the same no matter if I "officially" start the mine at level 4, 5, or 6, whether or not I buy the Short Sword or get the free one in the ruins (about the same, ultimately). However, it looks like the glitch will at least save me the trouble of killing the rock golems (about 5 seconds, if both are killed at the same time), but that puts me down 24 gold. Even then, that'd take an extra couple seconds to get set up for the glitch (being Easy difficulty, I can't take damage from being off-center, just from collision/attack animations, something I'll probably need to force), as well as killing a couple extra enemies to get the remaining gold, another second or two (one of the enemies is pretty much right in the way).
Ack, if it wasn't for those errors in the first couple segments (minor though they were), I probably wouldn't even consider restarting now, and instead just continue the Jira's Basement/1st part of the Ice Ridge segment. At the same time, it's a good chance to omit those errors, but that's not going to be easy without introducing others... What to do, what to do...?
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Oct 28, 2012 16:56:16 GMT -5
Well, progress on Ys II Complete is once again stalled (I'm restarting), and as time goes on, it seems more and more unlikely that I'll get a proper run finished, though I will still try (my motivation is pretty low, though). So, I've decided to upload one of my "single segment" runs I did of the game a few months back (using saves as a precaution). It is by no means perfect, but it's decent for what it is (I haven't done very many SS attempts of the game). Some of the items/armor I get just because it's a SS, in order to increase survivability - the segmented run will likely ignore most of that stuff. That's also the reason Dalles and Darm were handled as I did (segmented Dalles will likely be more reckless/quick, though I still don't know if I should take "Shield" magic for Darm). All things considered, I'd guess 5 minutes or so could come off the time (1:09:53 - starting at first movement, and ending at the final hit to Darm), though I'm hoping it'll be more.
Anyway, it's not much, but it's the least I can do until me or someone else does a properly optimized run of the game. Here it is. Enjoy!
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Post by nickbuhaoyisi on Feb 26, 2013 8:01:41 GMT -5
perfect run
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