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Post by Red Hairdo on Dec 26, 2012 10:06:48 GMT -5
Ah, there, I finally found it after a looooong search.
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Post by yotaka on Dec 26, 2012 18:57:31 GMT -5
"A lot of giant mechas". Animu This really shouldn't be a surprise. We've had mecha since the very first game and 90% of Ouroboros' forces in SC were smaller machines. They're probably going to be heavily involved (and if you want to get picky, 'mecha' doesn't just mean humanoid things so they could also be talking tanks and gunships) and they just showed off their new toys in Ao so it's natural to expect them to build on that. They've got a pretty clear direction (we were able to predict where this game would be and who the protagonists were because they've been setting us up for Erebonia for five games now) and I don't think people have been let down yet. Well, maybe Ao's ending caused a few fans a moment or two of rage for one reason or another but it's not like they've forgotten how to write great characters and an engaging plot. I do wish they would make more non-Kiseki and Ys games and I'm glad they've got some new IP in the works and hope they do more in that area in the future.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Dec 26, 2012 20:33:27 GMT -5
(and if you want to get picky, 'mecha' doesn't just mean humanoid things so they could also be talking tanks and gunships) I had no idea that could be that, as well. Though when they add "giant" to it, I really don't think they were referring to that kind of machinery... But yeah, despite all, I was somewhat aware of the existence of mechas in Kiseki before, thanks to Renne in Ys vs. SNK. What I meant, though, is that it sounded they were really going to emphasize on it and it being giant more than usual... It just sounded they were trying to aim at all that's popular in mainstream stuff in Japan. As in, forcedly. But yeah, I can't really say anything, not having played the series. It was just... a comment on what impression it gave me off. Oh, well, what I originally meant was what direction in terms of choices for their games. As in, what to focus on, genre-wise and content-wise more generally, like, say, their choice for the personality of the main heroine, or how much the game will have of "serious things" x "funny moments" proportionally, and what is their natures, such as how many generic themes they would use or not use i.e. a fight between 2 best friends, bath scene, loli etc., and how well-made each bit would be. As well as whether they would take the DLC approach, in particular for costumes, or not. All those things. But yeah, I never doubted Falcom's capabilities in making great stories and characters, and that too for Kiseki. Plus there are some generic things that I like, too, for them being well-done, and occasionally having creativity for some things. Although, for said things, I usually enjoy them better without certain things that are only there in the first place based off whatever is really popular in Japan for whatever reason, and they just added such for more success. I.e. loli + big badass weaponry, and sometimes accompanying gore. It's just that those are not what I like the most in Falcom's previous works. I prefer it when they put emphasis on more distinct things, or epic things, and avoid inserting "popular" stuff for the very sake of being popular rather than it contributing to making their games better. (Because there's nothing wrong in adding something popular if it actually REALLY helps the game get better, and Falcom showed us that before, among a few other companies.)
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Post by yotaka on Dec 27, 2012 2:04:57 GMT -5
Well, I can't argue against most of that stuff about direction and choices and I'll repeat that I'm really looking forward to this new project they've hinted at since it opens up all sorts of possibilities for Falcom. I had no idea that could be that, as well. Though when they add "giant" to it, I really don't think they were referring to that kind of machinery... Translation error, the line in Japanese is ¡‰ñ‚Í“oê‚·‚郃J‚à‘½‚¢ (A lot of mecha will be appearing in this game), which doesn't carry the 'giant' implication and could well be talking about Erebonia's tank forces, which we know they're rather proud of. Of course, the humanoid option is still there and after Ao we'll probably get those but things aren't as cut and dry as the translation makes it sound. Fair enough. Just to provide a little non-spoiler context, since you're aware of Renne and her giant robot companion, as an extension of that idea Ao introduced three machines that were based on her Pater Mater, which play a major role in the plot. Falcom may have amped things up a bit because humanoid mecha are inherently popular (the Aion machines have been jokingly compared to Gundams in both English and Japanese discussion boards) but it still follows fairly naturally from what we've had since SC, or even FC with Traumerei. Edit: Err. once again the board doesn't like my posting in Japanese but changing your browser encoding should make it display properly.
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Post by fireinthehole on Dec 27, 2012 11:30:51 GMT -5
Translation error, the line in Japanese is ¡‰ñ‚Í“oê‚·‚郃J‚à‘½‚¢ (A lot of mecha will be appearing in this game), which doesn't carry the 'giant' implication and could well be talking about Erebonia's tank forces, which we know they're rather proud of. Of course, the humanoid option is still there and after Ao we'll probably get those but things aren't as cut and dry as the translation makes it sound. Yeah, "giant" isn't there but I usually associate mecha in Japanese culture with "gigantic humanoid robots" so I kinda assumed that would be the case. Plus, considering Pater Mater and those three robots from the Crossbell series, it should be no surprise that we will get such robots. Also, take a look at this image: That black green thing that some characters are facing looks like one. Well, I can't argue against most of that stuff about direction and choices and I'll repeat that I'm really looking forward to this new project they've hinted at since it opens up all sorts of possibilities for Falcom. I am not sure if this new project signifies opening of all sorts of possibilities or losing its own originality as Red Hairdo stated. Based on few screenshots and information released so far, I cannot say I am impressed. Speaking of Ao's ending, I disliked Ao in general. Ouroborus's presence felt forced just for the sake of continuity, characters are little too anime, and the ending was rushed and left too many plot threads unfinished. I am rather cynical with Falcom nowadays. My thought on Falcom's activity in 2012 is that with lackluster sale on PSVita, they probably took away some efforts on Ys Celceta, put it on Zwei!! 3, and then sold it as the Kiseki title in order to maximize profits. It's a real shame since Celceta is one Falcom game I thoroughly enjoyed in few years and I feel they could have fixed most of issues like slowdowns and music if they focused on Celceta alone.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Jan 3, 2013 22:13:44 GMT -5
From my understanding, the "new things" Falcom is trying basically means "let's do what all other typical companies of the genre do, while we lose our originality/own characteristics, and appeal to the gigantic masses". That's what it sounds like, to me. They were already slowly going on that way ever since... Ys Seven or Kiseki or Kiseki being ported to the PSP happened, but by now they fully embraced it. The "DLC" bit is like the "final proof", IMO. The DLC thing isn't new. Falcom's been talking about this for years and how they've wanted to be able to put out DLC for their games. To me, this isn't anything unlike in the past when they've released scenario after scenario for Sorcerian. The only difference then, is that each scenario was packaged media, but it still required the original game, and was nothing but an add-on. If I'm correct, Xanadu itself was also guilty of this, as well, but nowhere near as much of an 'offender' of it as Sorcerian was. (I think Xanadu had two supplemental scenarios added to it). They stopped releasing individual scenarios for Sorcerian in 1990, even. I think it was about two years ago when Kondo first mentioned the idea of doing a long-story type RPG, ala the Kiseki series, but instead of releasing all of the chapters as one game, like we've seen in the series so far, releasing it digitally, one chapter at a time. (Think with the first Trails in the Sky, you get the Rolent chapter, then a few months later, you get the Bose chapter, then the Ruan, etc etc.) This to me doesn't sound too much unlike what Tell-Tale does with their games like The Walking Dead, Sam and Max, or Back to the Future. I think it's an interesting model, and in some cases, it works really well. I don't think the DLC being a new thing or not changes the point of what I said. And while comparable, it's nothing even remotely close to the level of what was done with Xanadu (there was only one scenario, by the way) or even Sorcerian. The difference is in the very nature of the DLC versus an expansion pack's. Both Xanadu and Sorcerian were not designed to originally be expanded upon: they were successful games, so Falcom later thought of properly expanding them, and that approach works very well on games with customizable characters. They were like new games. But DLC, especially these days, and definitely what Falcom has planned here, is something far more milky, and silly. The most typical approach: the already-announced character costumes. Next generally it's extra scenarios. (Then extra characters, but I don't think Falcom will do this yet. Will they?) The problem about this is that they planned these BEFORE even releasing the game, purposefully giving the buyer the feeling their game is "incomplete" (and depending on what's there on the DLC, it will really be without it), even despite the fact the buyer... precisely bought the game! Buying a game that you didn't buy in entirety is horrible. The original Sorcerian and Xanadu are both complete in their original forms and will never give off that feeling. My brain never even registered Xanadu had an "extra scenario", because upon playing and finishing Xanadu, you don't feel anything is missing, and you might even never learn of the extra "scenario", which is nothing but a sequel. You just feel accomplished. It's just an approach I never liked in any company. Never supported any company taking this approach (unless if all DLC was free, like in Mega Man Powered Up/Rockman Rockman). To me it's an issue almost as bad as DRM is in PC games.
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Post by yotaka on Jan 4, 2013 13:47:54 GMT -5
The name makes 100% sense, too, considering the power source for the machines and what Goldius is and all. I must have missed a reference somewhere because I'm actually not sure of this one. Oh, speaking of the Aion machines, does your copy of Crossbell Archive have a misprint where parts of Pater Mater's specs got copied into the Type Gamma's description? The first and the last, I'll agree with and if there's an explanation for how that has happened it will be cool. The middle example I'm a bit less certain qualifies. Anima Mundi's appearence pretty much being 'Whatever will most jerk Kevin around' rather than necessarily being something fixed. Not that I can explain why that mechanical-looking monstrosity is the exact form it chose to tack on to the giant Stigma at the end (aside from 'it looked cool') but it's not quite the same as Weissmann and Joachim being transformed. By the way, was I the only one totally creeped out by that one move Weissmann's first form has where he flips upside down and the 'head' on his underside starts shaking around?
Oh, and to add, obviously I'm hoping if we get an explanation for those it's more sophisticated than the obvious 'The Septerrion did it and as Eidos moves in mysterious ways, so too do her treasures'. I'm inclined to believe that there's nothing in this that we don't know about. The Pillars' reaction in Star Door 14 seemed to me like that was the first of the treasures they got their hands on, making Demiourgos the second. I think we still have five completely unaccounted for, unless the theory that the Church is sitting on one turns out to be correct which I rather like. Well, in my case it's less the arrangements and more that so many of my favorite songs simply didn't make it into the game even though there's no particular technical reason they couldn't have included more of them. Oh, definitely. I didn't have much problem with the OST on its own and certainly not things like that. Again, it's the omissions that annoyed me more than anything else.
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Post by yotaka on Feb 12, 2013 11:14:23 GMT -5
Doesn't seem right for this topic to have sat for so long, especially now that we've got some news about our protagonists. One company president's daughter, one daughter of a noble, one adopted son of a noble and one son of a famous general. Throw in a healthy mix of social tension and you've got a recipe for a really interesting story even before taking the inevitable Ouroboros manipulations into account. Also, Rin studied under Yun Kafei which means that 1) He's going to be awesome in combat, 2) more information on the workings of Hachiyou Ittou and 3) we might get to learn more about Anelace's grandfather.
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Post by fireinthehole on Feb 12, 2013 14:50:02 GMT -5
At least we know this game takes place before the end of Ao since Osbourne completely wins the civil war and effectively starts controlling the empire at that point.
I assume that these students are from the school that Olivier is supporting since they are all from the noble families, most of whom oppose Osbourne. But considering Osbourne in TC said something along the line of "children are ready", we could probably expect some serious plot twists. It would be completely in character for Osbourne to have some students as spies for him after all. Other than Yun Kafei, I am curious about the emperor, the father of Olivier. My personal thought is that he will turn out to be a mastermind behind everything in the Erebonian arc who manipulates everyone under the guise of a puppet ruler and tries to take absolute power using one of the seven treasures. It would show where Olivier got his "stupid" act from.
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Post by yotaka on Feb 12, 2013 19:10:37 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised if there was one but I think 'the children' refer to Osborn's followers the Iron Breed. We don't know too much about them aside from the fact that Lechter is one. Well, allegedly at any rate. For all we know he's playing a double-triple game and is really the head of the Septian Church pretending to be a Pillar of Ouroboros pretending to be Osborn's loyal aide. But seriously, I'd be shocked if Osborn hasn't tried to get somebody into Thors. He'd be insane not to want to keep an eye on anything that looks like a power base for our favorite prince
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Post by awildseaking on Mar 7, 2013 1:53:17 GMT -5
Will Arianrhod appear in Sen? She is from Erebonia, right? www.falcom.co.jp/sen/chara.htmlWhat do you all think about the new characters? I like that Rin learned from Yun Kafei. I hope he becomes very overpowered like Arios. Alisa is the daughter of the President of the Reinford company. Reinford is Epstein's competitor, right? I remember hearing Tio mention them once in Zero. Eliot just looks like a trap. Seriously, in one of the screenshots he looks like a girl. I noticed Laura has golden eyes. Is this just a meaningless design choice, or does it mean what I think it means?
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Post by yotaka on Mar 7, 2013 2:47:28 GMT -5
It probably doesn't since that plot has been wrapped up nicely, tied up with a bow and shipped off to plot thread heaven. As in, the Cult is done with, their 'god' has been revealed for the ironic lie that it is and their purpose for existing (helping revive Demiourgos' power) is done for. There's no pressing need to bring them back in such a huge way, we already had a PC per arc whose life was ruined by them and, oh yeah, golden eyes aren't a 100% accurate indicator of early Gnosis use. Wazy, the Astrays, the Capuas and some minor NPCs all have them in some shade. For the others, yes, Reinhold is one of the big Orbal companies, along with Verne, the ZCF and the Epstein Foundation. Rean is probably going to become awesome over the course of the game(s) which will be a sight to see and Elliot does have that shota look going for him. For Arianrhod, I'm 100% positive she'll appear in the Erebonia arc if not in Sen itself because it's her homeland, her past is linked to a major event that will probably get a lot of attention in the arc (look at when Thors was founded...) and she was heading there at the end of Ao as part of Phantom Flame. If she doesn't appear in Sen, she'll definitely be mentioned and will appear in the inevitable sequel. Especially after Ao dropped that bombshell about Ein, who may or may not be the blurry figure from that one picture. Plus, my pet theory is that she's apparently immortal because she somehow encountered the Septerion of Time which is located in or near the Empire. If I'm right about the origin of her agelessness, it would only make sense to have her involved in the plot
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Post by awildseaking on Mar 7, 2013 3:12:28 GMT -5
That's good to know. After learning about the things that happened to Renne and Tio, I don't really want to learn about any other characters associated with that. Also, is it just a coincidence that several people involved with the church have green hair? After Wazy revealed himself as Dominion #9 and knowing that Kevin was #5 I couldn't help but notice they both had green hair. Ein sort of has green hair and she's Dominion #1. What exactly are these stigmas that they all have? Are they blessings from Eidos or something? Septian church is all over Zemuria and if Ouroboros is looking for another artifact I'm sure the church will be involved as usual. I wish they had a larger role, I really do like Kevin and Ries.
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Post by fireinthehole on Mar 8, 2013 14:51:14 GMT -5
Stigma is discussed during TC but there are still many mysteries surrounding it. At least one of the conditions for their appearance is a gigantic trauma and stigma absorbs the power of the artifacts nearby when it first appears, as shown in both Kevin and Wazi's cases. Considering those artifacts had rather sinister powers (one turned a human into a monster and another caused the entire village to worship it as a god), stigmas may not be as holy as the church claims. In fact, my theory is that the church is actually the secret mastermind behind Ouroborus and that Campanella is Ein in disguise as even less is revealed about the church than Ouroborus. For Sen no Kiseki, the church will have a larger role since Wazi in Ao no Kiseki states that the church can only afford to send two of their Dominion knights to Crossbell due to most of their forces' being held in Erebonia.
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Post by yotaka on Mar 8, 2013 20:35:10 GMT -5
Yeah, we don't know that much but here's what we have: The Stigma phenomenon is described as a 'mark on the soul' born through strong emotion and awakened by more strong emotion. We're two for two on 'despair' being the trigger. It seems like people who already have a Stigma can sense the potential for it in others since Ein sensed the potential in Kevin.
Aside from the emotional trigger, there needs to be an Artifact nearby in order for a Stigma to awaken. The bearer will then absorb that Artifact and to an extent it will shape their power. Kevin absorbed the Demon Lance of Roa and he can use it to summon many smaller copies of the spear for his second S-Craft, Wazy absorbed his village 'god' and his Akashic Arm shares its coloration and life-draining property. On the holiness debate, bear in mind that there seem to be Artifacts capable of doing all sorts of things. There's no reason (yet) to assume something sinister is at work simply because of the two Dominion we know about... especially since they're both unequivocally good people. Well, mostly.
In addition, the Stigma seems to function like a sort of limiter release, allowing the bearer to exceed normal human limitations but the use is incredibly draining. The degree to which a given Dominion can use their power varies. Ein apparently got her position because she's able to draw out the most potential of her Stigma... and apparently she's so good that she rarely needs to. One more reason seeing her fight Arianrhod is something that we're all waiting for.
The entire phenomenon is pretty mysterious and one reason I've seen floofy advance the theory that the ancient Zemurians made use of some form of organic technology. It might explain the Stigma, artifact absorption and Weissmann and Joachim's transformations.
And in closing, you're not the first person to notice the link between hair color and Dominion-ness. It's something that makes Campanella very suspicious, enhances the Master=Eidos theory a bit and has made some of us rather suspicious about Julia and her future role in the series
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Post by awildseaking on Mar 8, 2013 23:50:41 GMT -5
When you say suspicious, do you mean that Julia might be a Dominion, or that she may have an unawakened stigma? I don't know a lot of the details from the 3rd, but wasn't there some part where Julia wasn't able to do something and Kevin told her that only church members were able to? Also, if green hair indicates relation to Eidos, wouldn't that indicate some sort of predestination? Kevin had green hair before he became a Dominion. At least, I think he did in those scenes where he was younger.
I didn't understand the scenes very well so I don't know if I'm making something up, but you say that stigma is closely related to gnosis. Could this explain why Kevin was able to save Ernest and Wazy was able to save Wald? You were unable to save Joachim, so I think these events might support the theory.
Also, I noticed you were comparing some of these demonic creatures to the Goldias machines, so I figured I should ask. What exactly are these machines? I know the 13 factories are involved with creating them and that various people have designed them (jorg, novartis), but what are they made of exactly? They're clearly alive to some extent, as they are autonomous and capable of communication. Maybe not speech, but I remember when Patel Matel died in Ao, it said goodbye to Renne. Renne seemed to think Patel Matel could be fixed, but it died, which indicates to me that some part of it is probably organic. Then Joshua said something about there not being a backup, but I'm not really sure what he was referring to specifically. I'm currently under the impression that they're like EVA units, except more mechanical than organic.
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Post by yotaka on Mar 9, 2013 20:07:08 GMT -5
The green hair/Dominion thing is just an observation of a (currently) unbroken pattern (and if we're counting, the other prominent green-haired character is basically one of Eidos' treasures in human form...) but I don't think even the most tinfoil-hatted of us take it so seriously as to analyze whether there's predestination involved with hair color. Still, you never know, it could be something like that.
Anyhow, the Julia bit is simply another observation since she has the hair color, an S-Craft with a religious angle to it and spends a fair bit of time in Kevin's company in SC. You've got to admit that it's something to speculate on at least. And the theory (such as it is) is that she's got the potential, not an actual Stigma. If she had one, we wouldn't have the plot of The 3rd because the Church would have told her to take care of the Arca and wouldn't have needed to send Kevin. As for the scene, if I'm thinking of the one you're thinking of, it was sensing demons, something that you don't need to be a Dominion to do, just have training. Ries could do it as well.
On a connection between Stigma and Gnosis, that's not a conclusion I've reached but it might be that there's some similar root cause for some of the things we've seen happen so far. If you want to explore the green hair angle, perhaps it's an inherited trait from pre-Collapse people who recieved some form of biotech enhancements which explains why they sometimes get Stigmas, while other people can enhance themselves through the Septerion (Weissmann was empowered by Aureole, Gnosis is linked to Demiourgos). One more avenue for speculation.
For the machines, everything we know says that the Goldias series is 100% mechanical. Pater Mater's 'awakening' is more the AI that already ran the machine developing self-awareness than anything else.
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Post by yotaka on Mar 14, 2013 0:51:23 GMT -5
An interesting notion. We've certainly got apparent immortality so reincarnation isn't exactly out of the question, whether it's metaphysical or technological a la FSS' Daughter Chip. I suspect that the information we would need to really get into the issue won't be revealed for a long time because that means getting into the nature of deities in Zemuria and since I'm pretty certain the Goddess of the Sky is playing an active role in the story...
Speaking of Campanella, I have no idea what he is but since he seems to share Arianrhod's complete lack of aging, I'm going to guess that there's more to him than simply having a Stigma. My former theory that he and Ein are the same person has taken a bit of a beating lately: Too many people we trust think she's worthy of their trust, she's got a rivalry with Pillars of Ouroboros and I can't imagine the Master's plan is so convoluted that She is pitting both oganizations who work for her against each other...That said, Campanella could have something very similar to a Stigma, maybe even a more advanced form of the artificial one Weissmann was able to create. Or he could be a super-advanced pre-Collapse doll weapon or something else entirely. He's definitely near the top of my list of people I want to know more about, along with Ein and Arianrhod. Odds are good we'll be getting some juicy information in Sen about at least some of them.
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Post by fireinthehole on Mar 14, 2013 1:13:32 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree that stigma's condition being a gigantic trauma seems to imply that that more knights tend to "awaken" during turbulent times. But I believe Kevin said at TC that you need something else in addition to the trauma for stigma to unlock. Reincarnation can work nicely although I was thinking more along the line of Zermurians in the past performing experiments on people in order to create a race of advanced beings who can use artifacts' powers freely by absorbing them. So knights are more or less descendants of those people who were experimented on. I would say gnosis functions similarly to the artificial stigma that was given to Joshua. In both cases, the people in question were given huge powers but they became puppets to whoever created it. Considering Ouroborus destroyed some of the cult's facilities, I wouldn't be surprised if Weissman took some of the cult's results, modified them so the effects would more permanent, and then applied them to Joshua. If the leader of Ouroborus turns out to be the goddess, then it's possible that the goddess felt that the church's ability to lead people in the right path (in her point of view) was insufficient and created Ouroborus as her next attempt. I am basing this theory on Weissman's statement in SC that he gave up his faith when he met the leader of Ouroborus. So there can be two interpretations for animosity between the church and Ouroborus: 1. The church is trying to win her favor again by defeating Ouroborus and achieving Ouroborus' goals (which would make them just as bad as Ouroborus). 2. The church may have rejected the goddess long time ago by stating that humanity can stand on its own, which would make the church a goodish force despite their secretive actions. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the leader of Ouroborus was pitting both organizations against each other. After all, the plot in this series CAN get that convoluted at times.
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Post by yotaka on Mar 14, 2013 1:31:54 GMT -5
Except that Weissmann was messing with Joshua long before Paradise. He 'fixed' Joshua after the Hamel tragedy, Loewe noticed that something seemed strange about him when they were sparring and the bit where he set up Joshua for the hit on Cassius is implied to have been based on what had already been done to him, with no evidence that Weissmann gave Joshua anything. Just speaking and Jedi Mind Tricks (tm).
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