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Post by Incog Neato on Nov 10, 2008 17:04:20 GMT -5
Shouldn't the last part be reversed -- that the tradition existed before the whole legal defintion of it came in? That's pretty much what I was trying to say in my earlier posts: that the legal definition arose from the cultural tradition, that it was created as a means of acknowledging, encouraging, and perpetuating the cultural custom. BUT I do think darusgrey is right that the two have somewhat separated themselves from each other. Edit: Hold up -- darusgrey was saying that they're one right now (culturally) and need to be separated. ^^ I like Yakra's country more -- how you just have to be married in order to even live with someone. :P
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Post by macroidtoe on Nov 10, 2008 17:13:53 GMT -5
Ah, well, in that case, maybe it's better to say that it's in transition, that the process of the separation is under way, that the two are starting to be regarded as separate entities which behave differently. And in fact this whole issue is part of that transition.
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Post by Musa-Revived on Nov 11, 2008 20:52:34 GMT -5
Ooh, can't believe I missed out on the action for so many days... Hmm, I suppose it's alright to state My views now right? Yeah another Asian's view. (Damn, I'm beginning to sound silly trying to highlight my existence as some dude in the far east) So anyway, if you want my honest opinion, I think Prop 8 is A-Okay. In fact, I think it's a good idea. But that's coming from some dude in Asia who knows nothing about the American lifestyle. Alright, I have to say it. I f*cking detest same sex unions. It's a personal thing, nothing to do with my country's laws, my religion nor what my society norm is. I just find the whole thing freaking weird. Alright, maybe it's more a basic thing, I just detest homosexuals. There I said it, I just don't want gays to hang around me. I'm not going to pretend that it's "perfectly acceptable for same sex stuff since everyone is entitled to love whoever/whatever they like bla bla" because I just personally disagree with the whole thing. No reason whatsoever, it's more of a baser instinct to just want to punch them in the face and say "get your bloody preference right, you freak" I don't mean to offend any of the homo-supporters that are reading this, since I'm pretty sure for every 'prick' like me, there's a thousand of others who are perfectly in acceptance. But you just have to live with the fact that there are still people who hate them, like me. I'm a Buddhist by religion but I seldom let my religion take over how I live my life. I mean, come on, if I were to be strictly Buddhist, I'd be in some monastery living a sedentary life abstaining from all of life's carnal pleasures And I don't even know what are the laws in my country regarding same sex marriages because I don't need to care. And being Chinese in nature, tradition and culture, we don't need laws to justify our need for a 'holy matrimony'. It's a way of life, you have to get married to the one you love. Cohabition, divorce is more of a Western concept that somehow got deeply mired in the East. I won't deny that many old traditional unions aren't happy, what with all the arranged marriages between unwilling couples, but at least married people stuck with each other their whole lives. Now, divorces and cohabitation trends are very much on the rise, but I suppose that's how the world turns. I'm glad that I get to choose who I want to marry. So as long it's not another guy. Ok, now I'm ready for all the pie bashing.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Nov 11, 2008 21:17:49 GMT -5
Since this thread IS about Prop 8, and not necessarily "the difference between a spiritual and a legal marriage", I guess I can state my views.
I'm neutral. I support gay marriage and open mindedness. However, I'm uncomfortable with gay people within my hearing and viewing perimeter, as I am not open minded enough to socialize with gay people or act even remotely courteous around gay people. Plus, the word "gay" is in my derogatory vocabulary, as is "faggot" and other derogatory terms; no offense meant to you, but you're better off not hearing my dialogue/monologue. Do not converse with me. Don't even look at me. You have my support, but lack my sympathy, compassion and other characteristics of humanity.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Nov 11, 2008 21:46:23 GMT -5
It's the societal effect. Being raised by intolerant people (intolerance is one thing I consider to be our greatest sense of immaturity) to learn to be intolerant.
I can be honest, since I don't care what society thinks of me; and would rather be left alone than marry a woman I can't even trust, there is no "alternative" in my case. Ready? I was "curious" and have had two "boyfriends" in my life. One was on the internet. The other was in person. Legitimately, it was more of a companionship thing for me; I was not sexually interested (I did not engage in sexual acts of any nature, at any cost!) but had considered one dude to be more of an *exceptionally* close companion. I was dumped for a chick. XD
Looking back, I realize, I turn gay dudes straight, and straight chicks lesbian... or I'm just easy to cheat on. I have no idea. XD
I don't mind dying alone, or dying a bitter old man. It's better than any "companionship" or "love" when you consider what you get for trying.
// As far as hatred, and whether or not it's baseless is concerned... hatred's not a good thing. I just do it because it keeps me out of trouble. I hate all people, and therefore, will not engage in any relationship, because I am too disgusted by anything and everything bound in flesh and bone. I call it my safety mechanism. Hurt others, hate others, shelter yourself, find paradise. *nods*
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Post by Falcom Director of Fanservice on Nov 11, 2008 21:58:37 GMT -5
Musa, Maggot, and anyone else: Why would you dislike someone for being gay?
It's like disliking someone because they enjoy broccoli more than lettuce. Their sexual orientation does not hurt you. Are you afraid they'll hit on you or something? What is your reasoning?
In your case, Maggot, are you assuming your experiences are representative of the whole? IE: Because one gay guy dumped you for a woman., does this mean that all gay people would do this to everyone? Please, help me understand your thought process here.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Nov 11, 2008 22:29:39 GMT -5
Actually, we can't forget that another gay guy managed to fuck a dog and end up in a mental institution, voiding that relationship; but while I was dumped for a woman, this does not represent my reasoning. Mine is actually not far from a regular straight dude's reasoning. I don't want to be hit on, groped, raped, or otherwise, even see something that actually would repulse me at this stage of my life.
As far as using hatred as a defense mechanism is concerned, gays are excluded from this. Yes, they repulse me, but only because I've continued to grow up around negative, ignorant influences. If I had MORE bad experiences with gays, then I would lump them up into a group alongside the women and the mexicans that I have yet to forgive; due to how they've treated me in general, regardless of relationship status.
Yes, it is a generalization versus a rationalization. I realize that. I am an irrational person. I use my anger to protect myself from racial, genderal, and sexual groups I feel threatened by. I am by all means biased, in many cases there is a basis; but there are also cases without a basis.
I don't care about "everyone", I care about myself. That's how I operate. The answer to that question is no, by the way; it also happens that I've never been attracted to a gay person since then.
// I had to clear a few things up.
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Post by Musa-Revived on Nov 11, 2008 22:56:43 GMT -5
Like I said, we're brought up differently from the West. We Asians have a totally different history from you Westerners. There never was a Jesus Christ or God thousands of years BC. And we make up a huge half of the world, don't forget that.
And taking for example, in China's 5000-6000 years of history, marriages have been strictly between man and woman. There could have been preferences for the same sex and I highly suspect so but they're not that documented in our history, which shows our aversion to that side of society. This form of thinking is in our blood as a typical Asian. It's not a good reason but that's how we think. It is only when the Westerners bring their way of thought into these parts of the world, that we found a different outlet for exposure.
So are you saying that your way of thought is the right one and that everyone in the world should abide by them? I'm not disagreeing with your "human-rights" train of thought, just pointing out that it's a Western concept. After all, we used to be "barbarians" to you.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Nov 11, 2008 23:05:34 GMT -5
I must also point out that there are people, like myself, who no longer consider anyone in the east "barbaric"; just totally awesome people and cultures. *nods*
I also have no intent of spreading my ideology either. I may vote to approve an issue, but that doesn't necessarily make it "right", "moral", or otherwise.
Come to think of it, I don't think there's a single culture or religion out there that supports gay marriage. X) In spite of my approval, I'd still like to take my front-row seat to watch this turn out to be an epic fail. XD
Only because I'm an angry, out-of-the-closet yet certainly heterosexual guy.
// I must also add that I hate the west. XD
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Post by Musa-Revived on Nov 11, 2008 23:17:00 GMT -5
Well, having said all that, did you know that the ancient Japanese Samurai have sex with each other?
Most schools of samurais consist of only men, and it's kind of an unspoken ritual for the senior samurai to have his way with the junior or something like that.
And the same samurai can have his way with women as well. So Japanese samurai are pretty much heterosexual.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Nov 11, 2008 23:21:16 GMT -5
That is an interesting history lesson. I'm surprised but I'm not going to say anything one way or another about this. It's right up there with the whole "kancho" lesson I'd learned; which I have to and will get over if I truly want any eastern experience. If someone doesn't eventually develop anti-kancho devices, I will fashion one out of a kevlar vest (metal plate included).
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Post by Skeletore has a boner on Nov 11, 2008 23:22:13 GMT -5
It may surprise you to know that most gays use faggot as a derogatory term against other gays as well. (You have to be gay to be a faggot, but not a faggot to be gay. The gays you see on HGTV and Bravo! are faggots, most gays aren't faggots).
You may have more common ground than you think ;0
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Post by Justin on Nov 11, 2008 23:29:30 GMT -5
So are you saying that your way of thought is the right one and that everyone in the world should abide by them? I'm not disagreeing with your "human-rights" train of thought, just pointing out that it's a Western concept. After all, we used to be "barbarians" to you. I don't agree with uniform thinking as a human race. I think there will come a time when that is important, but were still to young as a society to expect people on the other side of the world to live like we do. Asian culture is thousands of years old, while North American culture is less than 500 (If you trace back its European origins). While opinions and beliefs should not effect Asian culture, Asian cultural beliefs should have no effect on us ether. What works for us will not work for everyone, but it is something we need to be concerned about. We are not chained by years and years of tradition, as we are still chiseling our own. We as a nation (Well Canada, and US) proclaim freedom, privacy, right to choice, so this issue is important. I think in the end, if it doesn't effect the greater good of the people, it should be allowed.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Nov 11, 2008 23:30:12 GMT -5
Eh, well I'm still too vulgar to be having these gay-ass conversations.
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Post by Musa-Revived on Nov 11, 2008 23:53:12 GMT -5
I'm right with you there Unsavory, seems like we hit on the same note here
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Post by Skeletore has a boner on Nov 11, 2008 23:56:33 GMT -5
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Nov 12, 2008 0:25:50 GMT -5
If it weren't for you, I wouldn't have seen that advertisement. XD Funny stuff. Adblocker is awesome, though.
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Post by macroidtoe on Nov 12, 2008 0:31:25 GMT -5
There's the Japanese example mentioned above, and the Greeks and Romans had a bit of something going on. I think I also remember reading once about a Native American tribe who had some kind of ceremony through which a person could be declared to have changed their gender, and therefore would take on the social role of that gender, including marriage to the opposite of their "new" gender.
Although the Romans were kind of weird in that while it was very common among the upper classes, it was simultaneously regarded as something to be ridiculed over and used as a political slander if it was made public, even though the guys doing the ridiculing were probably involved in it themselves.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Nov 12, 2008 0:55:38 GMT -5
Further proof that Ernst likes it up the butt. XD
*ahem* In all seriousness though, I suppose I was off by a slight margin. Still, with so few supporters, can gay marriage really be a part of the "new world"? I find that extremely hard to believe.
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Post by Skeletore has a boner on Nov 12, 2008 1:08:29 GMT -5
Historically speaking homosexuality has been very accepted throughout human history.
It wasn't until the 1200s that it actually became taboo in Christan culture, and it wasn't until almost the 1800s you actually saw active discrimination. This was when you saw the consolidation of what we modernly know as "Gay Culture". Before this point in history having sex with men was just something you did on the side because you liked it, you still had a wife and ended up having children(this is how the genetic trait keeps getting passed on).
Once we started actively discriminating against gays they consolidated and formed a separate identity than the rest of society(where before they were very much ingrained).
Before this point homosexuality was pretty much an accepted facet of every culture on the planet(even in China). People didn't talk about it, they just did it and no one cared.
Homosexuality is especially common in middle-eastern cultures(which despite common belief, they have no issues with man-sex 79% of Iranian men claim on surveys they've had sex with another man, only issue with is with those who live the "gay lifestyle" as it's a rejection of the Quran). Though I doubt they talk about it much either and most middle-easters probably don't realize how common it is in their own culture.
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