undamned
Lyus
Hyper Solid Shooting!
Posts: 120
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Post by undamned on Feb 8, 2009 19:32:39 GMT -5
Well, not to worry - I've been monitoring the discussion to make sure it didn't get too out-of-hand. It still seemed to be a valid discussion on a valid topic, but if it started to degrade into pure flaming, I would've put a stop to it. I have to say that even if I don't agree with some of you folks on the whole piracy bit, you have earned early respect with me for answering intelligently and cool-headed-ly on pretty much everything that has come up. I admit, I do poke and prod a bit too much in these sort of discussions, so I apologize for being atagonistic when I should just debate the topic vs striving against it's participants. I needed a few days to catch up on some things so I apologize for not responding to some points ya'all brought up. undamned: It all goes back to what I was saying in a previous post: the letter of the law, versus its intent. You never did comment on that, and I think that's the major issue here. The letter of the law says that all piracy, under all circumstances, is thievery... but I don't think anyone ever intended that law to be upheld in situations such as the ones described in this thread. And I believe that a system of justice based on the INTENT of the law is much fairer than one based on the LETTER of it... the former is actual justice, whereas the latter is simply bureaucracy. Sorry for neglecting to comment on this. I believe that a system of justice based on the INTENT of the law is much fairer than one based on the LETTER of it... the former is actual justice, whereas the latter is simply bureaucracy. Wonderfully stated, and I agree 100%! Unfortunately you and I don't live in a perfect world with perfect laws. What I am addressing is that alot of people are making up their own "personal laws" because they don't agree with actual laws. "I don't agree with [insert law] because [insert logic] so I'm just going to [insert whatever I want to do]." I am not saying that I don't understand the "why's" that people give for piracy. The fact is that none of us here are law makers. We are either law abiders or law breakers. Our actions define which we are, not the rational behind doing what we do. One can logically justify some terrible things, so just because what one is saying makes sense, does not make it "right" from a moral standpoint, let alone a legal one. Actually I've spent some time in an impoverished area of Mexico, El Choyudo. It's a tiny fishing village with no running water and only one "store," that I can recall, so I'm aquainted with "poor." "spent some time"?How long is that? That could either mean a week, a month. In other words, even if it was one month long, you spent no time to say anything at all about how it is to live under bad situations. It was about a week. Most everything is dirty. Even though they live "on the water" you can't drink sea water so they had to depend on finding someone w/ a truck to go to another city and get drinking water. Everyone had containers outside their homes that they'd go to get water from. Everything had a purpose. In America people have closets and garages full of stuff they don't use. There you use everything you have and that is why you own it (and there are probably things you have to borrow from a neighbor because you don't own them). Most of the houses were unpainted and of questionable construction. I would sum it up as "streamlined living." We have so much access here in America. Things we don't use, things we throw away because we are too lazy to fix them, or because we want something better. There you use what you have and you better make it last because it may be a while before you can get another one, if ever. Also that doesn't reach the poverty level we are talking here. You say they got water, that's already too much. Look at Brazil's Northeast states (you won't research it will you?). And in fishing towns people can fish, in other words, eat. Have food. Live poorly, BUT still live. Damn it. ... Compared to a "favela", any fishing town is plain luxury. "Favelas" are pure chaos. The most world-famous favelas are all located in Rio de Janeiro city, where many people get shot and are murdered every night. Innocent people who live there live in fear of getting shot by a lost bullet. They know everyday may be their last day. there are actually even people that can't live EVEN in a favela, but stay nearby, and are blessed if they find anything in the trash can that their stomachs can endure after eating, if they don't die from disease first. As much as that is truly sad, what relevance do areas that are that bad off have to do with this conversation? Do you think if they are starving to death or fearing for their lives that they are also pursuing something as luxurious as video games? Well, that's all good, but I wonder what that has to do with what we are talking about. What restrained you from purchasing/receiving games is absolutely different from what we have discussed so far. Your parents decided not to buy you things. Do I need to point out more?? >____> In other words, that's totally unrelated to what we are speaking of. I spoke of my childhood experience and, earlier in this discussion, about my college experience because both were personal exposure to living with extreme limitations on videogames (like both justinzero and ranzor mentioned about poorer communities being stuck with older consoles). Your limitation may be money (which mine was in college), whereas my limitation as a child was my parents, but at the end of the day, both you, others, and I have experienced seriously limited access to video games. My point is that we share common ground to speak on such an issue together, vs someone who has never lived through such limitations and is speaking based on theory alone, having no experience to back it up. Now, I should tell you too that I know many people who download games they can't afford, but once they get the means to do so, they buy whatever they once obtained illegally. That's what I do myself actually. Well, that's certainly more commendable than having no intention of buying *sigh*, man you distorted and lost the point of what Ranzor said. Why didn't you actually quote the whole thing? You cut the sentence off in the middle and said whatever you wanted using the first, unfinished half. xDD That was somewhat amusing. Because I wanted use one of the two facts in his statement: 1.) People buy PS2's in Brazil 2.) He knows none who buy official games The first fact was what I wanted to use to make the point that if people can buy a PS2 (even if it takes 1-2 years to pay off), they can buy games (yes, even if it takes months of saving) legitimately, therefore busting justinzero's myth that people over there are so poor there's no way they could even possibly buy a game legitimately. I did not distort ranzors words. People do buy PS2's in Brazil. Period. (Besides, you're ignoring scenarios like what if I want my little nephew and niece to try out Ys too? I do want them too. And whenever I trot over to their house and install it on their computers, install the patch, and go off on my merry way...... why then those little 2-5 year old kids would become great thieves in crime too, no? After all, I would own the copy and not them! An illegal version they'd have! They'd truly deserve to be thrown into jail! ) It's perfectly fine to install your Ys game on your nephew and niece's computer as long as you have uninstalled it from your computer (or whichever computer it's already installed on). Get on over there and show those kids some love! -ud
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Post by Red Hairdo on Feb 8, 2009 21:05:56 GMT -5
Hmmmm, well. I only got a few things to say. As much as that is truly sad, what relevance do areas that are that bad off have to do with this conversation? Do you think if they are starving to death or fearing for their lives that they are also pursuing something as luxurious as video games? I wrote that in response to what you said about being familiar with poverty. My point is that we share common ground to speak on such an issue together, vs someone who has never lived through such limitations and is speaking based on theory alone, having no experience to back it up. I see. That may even be the case, but Justin was still right about what he said. There isn't much more to say other than that though, really. We will have to agree to disagree on most things on that matter. We already discussed about most of it, and we don't want to contribute to a pointless loop. So, yeah, that's all. Peace. xD
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Post by Justin on Feb 8, 2009 23:36:10 GMT -5
You lived through those conditions too? I thought you only took a convienient vacation to the magical place I based my "theories" on.
Also, don't try and pretend you understand how I grew up. I only have money now because I am able to make it for myself. I don't need to justify my "Ghetto Rank" so my "theories" are viable. The difference between you and I is, I understand the whole picture, and you confine your opinion to one absolute idea.
ugh you really piss me off.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Feb 8, 2009 23:51:07 GMT -5
To be fair, everything pisses Justinzero off. ;D
I can't really state my opinion one way or another here, since everything that was needed to be said, has been said. I'm with Red Hairdo on this, however; the conversation doesn't need any endless loops -- everyone should just accept that they can't possibly agree with eachother, call it quits, and just have fun here. I mean, we typically agree to disagree anyway, so what makes this particular topic so damn special? :P
// I do have something to add, however. What if you can't find what you want on eBay, amazon, in any store, or straight from the developer's website? I mean, if you can't access what you want outside of piracy, should you still be denied access?
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Post by Justin on Feb 9, 2009 0:02:20 GMT -5
One way or another, yeah I would say so Good question man, as I tried searching for the Ys VI demo, and nothing is coming up. I would love to muck with that disk for an hour or so.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Feb 9, 2009 6:51:45 GMT -5
xD Yeah, same here. I have been searching for most Tsukihime games on Amazon, eBay and the like, but I have had no luck so far. By the way, if somenone sees the PS2 version of Vantage Master Japan on sale anywhere, please let me know. xD Argh, I'm going to request stuff on The Marketplace. xD
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Post by zaratus on Feb 10, 2009 4:16:09 GMT -5
Hmm, I don't remember that big blurb under the downloads being quite so long. Seems as if, indirectly, we have a response to stuff written here about NW's 'rants'. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't remember the 'alienating' bit being there, along with some of the other stuff that follows. And it seems to mirror quite closely with some of the stuff said here.
Meh, doesn't matter either way, won't post on it again.
Back to the piracy bit, I'm curious as to how you feel about so-called 'Abandonware'. Games no longer for sale by the creators, or pretty much anywhere, even used. To some degree, this also includes emulation, although some games are still being sold via Virtual Console or other such means.
But, what about some obscure Atari game, or some 15-20 year old DOS game? (Speaking of which, after having not been there in a very, very long time, it seems Home of the Underdogs might finally be down for the count.)
Also, going on yet another topic, talking about the morality of laws, and laws not necessarily being always right, I'm reminded of the existance of some laws in places that are just wrong. Or absurd. Although many don't get enforced, there's some that still are.
I can't seem to think of or find any examples at the moment of a more meaningful one than some of the stuff you get from looking up "Dumb Laws". At best, I get discussions on the morality of disobeying unjust laws and crap like that. And it's late, and I wanna get some sleep, so I'll just leave it at that. =P
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undamned
Lyus
Hyper Solid Shooting!
Posts: 120
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Post by undamned on Feb 10, 2009 11:21:11 GMT -5
As for abandonware, that's literally OUTSIDE the law. It's one of the few cases where downloading commercial software is not illegal in the slightest, since no one actually owns the rights to it anymore. The only issue is that sometimes people label things as "abandonware" when in actuality, they've been bought out by another company, and are still officially owned by someone. Yeah, I have no problem with abandonware, I just need to do my homework to verify that it is really abandonware I was recently talking to someone about a particular SFC ROM from a company that still exists today and they referenced it as "abandonware." I don't agree with that label if the company is still kicking. Some people think if a game is "old" or from an "old system" it falls into that category, which is not the case. -ud
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undamned
Lyus
Hyper Solid Shooting!
Posts: 120
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Post by undamned on Feb 10, 2009 15:30:43 GMT -5
IIRC, after the Vectrex went defunct, some major company bought the rights to it, but then a short while later, they basically declared, "hey, we don't actually want this stuff anymore, so we're making it public domain. Go nuts, everyone!"... and so it became abandonware. More companies need to do that -ud
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Post by Ranzor on Feb 10, 2009 18:00:50 GMT -5
If a game isn't being produced anymore, I don't see any problem with people downloading it.
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Post by zaratus on Feb 10, 2009 18:22:30 GMT -5
Some places tend to use the word Abandonware to refer to any game that isn't being sold or produced anymore. A lot of those companies are still around, but they just don't do anything with those properties, yet keep them from being distributed. A few companies still sell their older titles, but, all things considered, at ridiculous prices. Epic Games for example, has another company handling mail-order distribution of their older titles. You're looking at stuff that originally came on a single 3.5" floppy, that they're trying to sell today for $25.00. Yes, they're still available, but the prices seem rather steep. *shrug*
Huh, one of the games that they're selling for $25.00, it seems the original author decided to release it for free on his homepage years ago. That's just... *shrug*
Some old games, the companies are still around, they just no longer sell or support their older titles. It just becomes a matter that there is just *no* way whatsoever to get ahold of the game otherwise.
But yeah, back when I still browsed those sites a lot, I remember seeing stuff on those "Abandonware" sites that was only a few years old. Something 5 years old is hardly abandonware, y'know?
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harlock
Dinvel
...alone in the eternal sea of stars...
Posts: 81
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Post by harlock on Feb 10, 2009 23:34:37 GMT -5
I just visited Nightwolve's site for the first time in a while, then I wandered over here and found this thread...
Where to start...
I think that the debate on piracy is both interesting and valid in and of itself. All sides have good points that for the most part make sense. What doesn't make sense is Nightwolve using anti-piracy to rationalize the mandatory donation policy that he initially had in effect when said policy is just as sketchy as piracy...
*Nightwolve wants you to buy a legit copy of OiF presumably so that Falcom gets paid for their intellectual property that they legally own. (makes sense)
*To make sure that you buy a legit copy of OiF. Nightwolve wants you to pay him money for a work based on an intellectual property that he does not legally own or have any rights to what-so-ever! (wtf)
Based on other various political posts made by Nightwolve I'm going to wager that he a) loves America and it's laws (nothing wrong with that) and b) believes in a capitalist society (also fine).
Now I am both an American and a capitalist, and I do believe that our laws are in place to protect us. What I don't understand is how Nightwolve can condemn others for unlawfully distributing/downloading games that they don't own, yet with clear conscience work in such a grey area both morally and legally, ie: charging for his patch.
If Nightwolve wanted to charge for his patch, there is a perfectly legal way to go about this. Falcom loves to license it's intellectual property (sometimes with tragic results). They even have a page on their site, in english, specifically for prospective licensees. If Nightwolve wanted to legally get paid for his work, all he would have to do is purchase a license from Falcom. Then he could charge as much as he wants!
Now I know somebody's going to say that I'm going a little bit to far... and I am. I just want to illustrate a point. Namely that Nightwolve can't have it both ways. If pirating is illegal and bad, then so is charging money for a work based on something that you don't really own.
That's just my opinion... btw I do legally own Oif... ...thoughts?
-Harlock
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Post by Ranzor on Feb 10, 2009 23:50:32 GMT -5
Good point there, harlock. I agree that Nightwolve really has a contradictory attitude in all this.
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