korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Dec 23, 2008 18:12:26 GMT -5
I don't know how many people on this site are interested in speedruns, but I thought I'd inform you all that I'm currently working on a speedrun of Ys I & II Eternal/Complete for submission to a speedrunning site known as Speed Demos Archive. Due to the rules of the site regarding unofficial patches (they're not allowed), this means that I'll be running the games in Japanese. That is also why I'm referring to the games as "Eternal"/"Complete" (I know some people are picky about that); even though I own the "Complete" versions, in-game (unpatched) they are still referred to as "Eternal". Anyway, I've finished with the planning for Ys I a while ago, and am currently in the recording stage. For reference, here is my current route for it (sixth post, but please take a look at the others as well). I'm still open to possibly a faster way of doing things, but this seems to be the best way so far. I've already tested the route pretty thoroughly, so I kind of doubt there's a better way. Although, I'd love to be proved wrong on that point. For Ys II, I've done very little research so far, as I'm mostly focusing on getting Ys I out of the way first. So, if anyone has any suggestions - especially for Ys II - feel free to speak your mind (but please, don't go off-topic as some of you tend to do). UPDATE: Ys I is now finished, and it has been posted to SDA (click on the time to go to the download page). Also, here are links to the raw video versions of the run segments. If you want better quality, it's probably better to download the files (the ones from archive.org), but be warned, the files are big. Enjoy! Ys I Videos:Single Segment run - 39:03 (38:07 SDA timing - beats the segmented run) Segment 1 ( Old, New) Segment 2 ( Old, New) Segment 3Segment 4Segment 5Segment 6Segment 7Segment 8Segment 9Ys II Videos:Single Segment run - 1:05:02Segment 1 ( Old, New - Download) Segment 2 ( Old, New - Download) Segment 3 ( Old, New - Download) Segment 4 ( Youtube, Download) Segment 5 ( Youtube, Download) Segment 6 ( Youtube, Download)
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Post by Red Hairdo on Dec 23, 2008 18:48:21 GMT -5
I think that's pretty cool. I like speedruns and the like. But just two questions... Which difficulty will you be playing in for that speedrun? Also, is that speedrun "divided" (as in, you can actually save the game or something and do your speedrun in parts) or is it the regular "From Beginning to End non-stop"? I never planned on doing Ys speedruns especially. But I think it's really cool. These kind of things are very delicate, so good luck!
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Dec 23, 2008 21:28:17 GMT -5
The run is being done on the "Easy" difficulty, and it's being done in multiple parts. Why Easy mode, and not something more challenging? That is mostly because of the increased damage I'll be doing once my level is maxed out, something I'll be doing before Vagullion. For instance, at level 10 Vagullion takes 8 hits on Easy, and 13 on Normal (with the Silver Sword, of course). Besides, he has an awful tendency to not appear fast enough, which can make the fight drag on, and very frustrating to get right.
Also, a lot of the bosses are a real pain to do, otherwise I might actually consider doing a "single-segment" (no saves). Well, that and I don't have much free disk space, so I need to transfer the completed files to another computer for safekeeping. Jenocres is actually the worst boss of them all in a speedrunning setting, most likely. Even if you have the 2nd set of equipment, he takes minimal damage, and you go down pretty easily as well. He takes 25 hits to kill, and he deals 5 HP damage to you. This doesn't change at all until you reach level 4, and that's only if you're wearing the 2nd set of equipment, level 5 if you're not. The only difference leveling makes at that point is more HP. Unfortunately, it is faster to beat him right away as leveling to 4 or 5 takes longer, and ultimately, you'll still be underleveled for Nygtilger (but he's a lot easier). Fortunately, I'm past Jenocres in the recordings, but Pictimos and Yog & Omu are the other major reasons why I'm not doing a single-segment. I'll be doing Darm Tower without armor after I get sent to the cell, which means those two bosses in particular can do quite a lot of damage to you really quickly if you're not careful (Dark Fact, too, but he's easier for me). Thankfully, though, they're pretty much done and over with, unlike Jenocres.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Dec 23, 2008 21:47:53 GMT -5
I see. Very interesting. That speedrun must be pretty hard. I'm not sure, but perhaps you could do some practice for the boss fights using the Time Attack/ Boos Rush mode. Since you'll be battling them on Easy under "handicapped" conditions, perhaps you could simulate it by trying that mode on Hard or something. And of course, finding out the quickest way to dispose off them. Well, like I said, good luck. Thanks for the info.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Dec 23, 2008 22:21:29 GMT -5
Once I get into Darm Tower, I think progress will really start to speed up. The parts before that are difficult mostly because that's when I need to deal with the two most time consuming bosses - Jenocres and Vagullion - which in turn makes them very hard to sit through to get right.
As for Time Attack/Boss Rush mode, it is automatically set to Normal difficulty (for Ys I at least, unsure about Ys II); no way to change it.
And while it is true some of the bosses can be a real pain to do fast, they're very short (on Easy, at least), excluding Jenocres and Vagullion. Plus, I'll be saving right before them, with the possible exception of Dark Fact. Jenocres is easily the most difficult so far, simply because of the amount of time you need to invest (takes about a minute and a half), and because you die in 4 hits at level 1. But I'm already past him, so Vagullion is likely the last major obstacle for me. Unfortunately, no amount of practice can prepare me for whether or not that battle will go well; it's almost totally reliant on "luck". That's not to say the other bosses won't be difficult, just that they'll be more bearable since the outcome is decided very quickly.
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Post by memoryjar on Jan 10, 2009 23:48:14 GMT -5
The two segments that you posted were well done. I notice some inevitable delays like waiting for monsters to come through a narrow opening but overall since the segments were really long, it is unavoidable. I hope you keep up the effort!
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Jan 11, 2009 22:42:06 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback!
Yeah, waiting for those monsters was unfortunate; as a matter of fact, I could swear that I've never seen them block those exact passages before (except the one I bump aside shortly after getting the second key in the Shrine - that one is almost always there). On the other hand, there were a couple of passages that are usually blocked that weren't this time around, so I guess it's kind of a mixed blessing.
Anyway, lately I've been trying to get a better segment 3 attempt (had one uploaded, but didn't post a link on this forum), but my previous one was apparently pretty good. I only managed to improve it by a second, but I think it can be improved by about 2-3 more seconds. I've tried quite a lot to get a better attempt than what's posted below, but this is the best I can manage. Actually, one of my earlier attempts beat this one by 1 second, but it had less EXP, which means I'd have to kill a couple of extra monsters while leveling. That wouldn't be so bad, except the main enemies I use to level (mantis-looking things) take several hits to go down at level 7, so I want to get to level 8 as quickly as possible. I even had one very nice attempt go bad at the very end while trying to open the Darm Key chest (you need to run into the chests just right, or else the game treats them like a wall) - I ended up wasting several seconds just trying to get the blasted thing open. >_<
Here's the updated segment 3 if anyone cares to watch it, plus a beta version of segment 4:
LINKS IN FIRST POST
The main reason I'm uploading a segment 4 attempt right now is to hopefully get some feedback on my method of leveling. Does anyone know of possibly a better way to do it? The next best method would probably be to use those knight-like enemies (510 EXP each), instead of the mantis creatures (480 EXP each). However, I cannot seem to get them to respawn fast enough, or in a favorable position like the mantises.
EDIT: Forgot to mention one very important thing about segment 3. I intentionally talked to the Roda Tree twice - once before eating the Roda Seed, and once right afterwards. The reason I did this is because I found out that the Roda Tree's special text can be skipped faster (scene normally takes 45-50 seconds, now takes 30-35 seconds) because the game is apparently fooled into thinking that the Roda Tree cutscene has already been activated, although that's just a guess on my part. However, I do know that if you talk to and understand the Roda Trees (either one would work) before returning the Silver Harmonica to Lair, they'll say some stuff, and talking to them a second time will trigger the cutscene again, only this time you can skip their text faster than before. After returning the Silver Harmonica, the Trees will only show their respective scenes once, and then they'll stop talking to Adol, which means that those scenes' special text cannot ordinarily be sped up. So, I guess the way I did the Silver Sword cutscene might be considered a glitch, but it is not me being forgetful to eat the Roda Seed beforehand.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Feb 2, 2009 16:33:58 GMT -5
Does anyone know of any semi-reliable way to get Vagullion to appear faster? So far, it seems random as to when he will appear, and I've no idea if there's any way to manipulate him to do so. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.
Having said that, here's my best segment 5 attempt so far, as well as the updated segment 4:
LINKS IN FIRST POST
I'm a bit hesitant to use the segment 5 attempt, due to the mistake when trying to talk to Jevah the second time, plus there's a couple spots where the menu work could've been a little faster. While the Vagullion battle is the best I've had so far, it is very hard to reproduce similar results, especially after the 3rd hit. It's only about 3-4 seconds lost (plus whatever could be gained from a possibly faster Vagullion fight), but I'd still like to improve it if at all possible.
EDIT: Updated the link to the segment 5 attempt (you might need to download it, though - it's currently not streaming like it normally does at first), which is about 3-4 seconds faster. Vagullion went down about 1 second faster than before (I'd still appreciate tips for him if anyone has any), but it's largely the same battle. Still have a couple really minor mistakes with Jevah (probably no more than a second or so lost), but I'm satisfied with this attempt. Time to work on Darm Tower!
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Feb 13, 2009 0:47:21 GMT -5
Segments 6 and 7 uploaded, though I'm still undecided whether or not to keep the segment 7 attempt or not. Here are the links:
LINKS IN FIRST POST
Segment 6 was a bit harder than I thought, mostly because the enemies in the corridor where Raba's hiding gave me trouble, especially when I needed to don the Mask of Eyes. Also, there is a brief movement hiccup after re-obtaining the Silver Sword, but it's very minor. Basically, that happens as a result of switching from the mouse back to the arrow keys (faster to use the mouse to equip the Silver Sword). Since I'm right-handed for using both the mouse and arrow keys, movement is always stalled briefly in such cases, so I doubt I could omit that mistake.
Segment 7 went pretty well, although I'm not sure whether or not I should try for a better battle damage-wise against Pictimos. It wouldn't save any time, plus it rarely happens, so I may just stick with this attempt.
Next is segment 8, which I'm planning to end before Yog & Omu. That means there's a fair deal of running around, as well as a bit of menu-work, so this may be a troublesome segment to get through. Once that's out of the way, segment 9 (final segment) shouldn't be too hard, except for maybe the Yog & Omu battle.
EDIT: Uploaded a slightly faster segment 7. It's only a one second improvement over the last one, plus there's another slight movement error (only cost me 5 frames), but Pictimos went down even quicker than before. It's hard to kill him that quickly, as well as have the rest of the segment go that smoothly, so I'll probably stick with this attempt.
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undamned
Lyus
Hyper Solid Shooting!
Posts: 120
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Post by undamned on Feb 18, 2009 13:36:39 GMT -5
Awesome work, korzic! This is truly a joy to watch I just finished this game a couple weeks ago, so it's that much more enjoyable segment 9 (final segment) shouldn't be too hard, except for maybe the Yog & Omu battle. I beat the heads w/o all battle armor, so I know it's possible, if I can do it The thing that stinks is when you think you might have a good run and then all of a sudden you get hit like 3 times in an instant and ruin your run I found that the best way for me to consistently not get hit was to run into the head as it moves toward me and: - it is moving right and the balls are rotating clockwise - it is moving left and the balls are rotating counter-clockwise Maybe it's just how my brain works, but that strat. seemed way more easy than any other. Also it's nice that you can walk underneath the head once you've gotten passed the balls, which makes it like two dash movements: run in, wait, and run out. -ud
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Feb 18, 2009 18:39:47 GMT -5
Glad you're enjoying it! Segment 8 is still giving me trouble; there's just so many enemies to avoid, and I need almost all my HP to make Yog & Omu bearable. I do have a pretty good attempt recorded already, but the only problem is Yog & Omu kill me in one hit (it is possible to win without getting hit, but very tough). Hopefully, though, it won't be much longer before a satisfactory segment 8 comes along. I found that the best way for me to consistently not get hit was to run into the head as it moves toward me and: - it is moving right and the balls are rotating clockwise - it is moving left and the balls are rotating counter-clockwise Maybe it's just how my brain works, but that strat. seemed way more easy than any other. Also it's nice that you can walk underneath the head once you've gotten passed the balls, which makes it like two dash movements: run in, wait, and run out. Hmm, I don't think that strategy would work well for me. Unless I'm mistaken, the projectiles around their heads rotate the opposite direction each time you damage it (due to the heads swapping places), which would make your strategy difficult to do fast. This is the basic strategy I plan to use for Yog & Omu (about 40 seconds into the video). If all goes well, I should be done with the battle when the heads cross paths for a second time (keep in mind, that video is preset to the Normal difficulty, and I'm on Easy). But for whatever reason, I seem to have a much higher success rate against this boss while not recording, although it's still difficult to get right. Oddly enough, the opposite is true while fighting Dark Fact. >_>
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undamned
Lyus
Hyper Solid Shooting!
Posts: 120
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Post by undamned on Feb 19, 2009 11:07:20 GMT -5
Hmm, I don't think that strategy would work well for me. Unless I'm mistaken, the projectiles around their heads rotate the opposite direction each time you damage it (due to the heads swapping places), which would make your strategy difficult to do fast. You are correct. The balls do change direction each time, so it does make for a long battle (when you aren't doing a speed run, you are more concerned about success than time, heh). This is the basic strategy I plan to use for Yog & Omu (about 40 seconds into the video). If all goes well, I should be done with the battle when the heads cross paths for a second time (keep in mind, that video is preset to the Normal difficulty, and I'm on Easy). Well, I sure hope easy mode is a lot easier than normal, because that guy is getting owned if you listen to how many times he gets hit! Without battle armor, each hit will take you down about an inch of energy bar and you can't afford to get hit half as many times as the guy in the video does. When I was playing w/o full battle gear, if I traded hits I don't even think that was a good enough ratio. I think I had to make at least one unscathed attack in order to beat him (that's when I was starting with max energy). Can't remember which sword I had -ud
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Feb 19, 2009 15:40:39 GMT -5
If I understand your strategy correctly, I think it's what I had to use while playing the game on Nightmare (although I haven't tested the other strategy on higher difficulties yet). By the way, you definitely want the Flame Sword equipped for this boss, unless you want a challenge. =p
And no disrespect to the owner of that video (especially since he's offered a lot of feedback on my run, even though I can't really use much), but he could've done that battle a lot better; besides getting hit less, he could've did a bit more damage when the heads crossed paths. Using his strategy during the Time Attack (what that other video shows), I think the earliest I've killed Yog & Omu was about the third time the heads crossed paths, whereas he did it around the fifth time. Still, it's a nice tactic I wouldn't have known about otherwise, so I have to give credit where credit is due.
Anyway, that strategy isn't too difficult to pull off on Easy; it's about a ~50% success rate when not recording, ~25-30% while doing so (that's without armor). I like to practice it unrecorded from time to time when the other segments aren't going so well, so it shouldn't take long at all. As soon as segment 8 is done, the final segment shouldn't be far behind.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Mar 1, 2009 22:29:41 GMT -5
Does anyone know if it's possible to skip rescuing Lair in Rado's Annex? A Youtube buddy of mine that I've discussed this run with says that he doesn't recall ever going there, at least until after failing to kill Dark Fact. Personally, I don't know how that's possible, as all my testing indicates that Luta Gemma will not give you the Blue Amulet (opens the door to Dark Fact) until you've properly read the first 2 Darm Tower Books of Ys with the Monocle. Even if reading the Books with the Monocle isn't required before Luta will give you the Blue Amulet, I'm fairly certain that Dark Fact's Book of Ys must be properly read before the ending sequence can occur. Unless there's an unknown glitch involved, or I'm missing something, the only place to get the Monocle is from Lair in Rado's Annex, right?
So, does anyone know anything about this? I just don't get how it's possible, and yet he says that upon watching my current segment 8 attempt, he's even more certain that he never went there until needing to level for Dark Fact.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Mar 2, 2009 9:56:25 GMT -5
There's no way you can skip talking to Reah/Lair.
If there is a way, then a bug is certainly involved. But I really, really doubt there's any.
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undamned
Lyus
Hyper Solid Shooting!
Posts: 120
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Post by undamned on Mar 2, 2009 11:30:30 GMT -5
Great work, again! -ud
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Mar 2, 2009 15:45:15 GMT -5
There's no way you can skip talking to Reah/Lair. If there is a way, then a bug is certainly involved. But I really, really doubt there's any. Personally, I think he's probably just having a brain fart or something, but he's pretty adamant that he never visited her (even after failing Dark Fact, he apparently didn't know how to open Lair's cell at the time, so he just leveled). I even asked him to load his file to see if he had the Monocle and Blue Amulet in his inventory, which he did, implying that he did visit her. I don't know what to make of it, so it can't hurt to ask around a little. Great work, again! -ud Thanks, but there's yet another brief memory lapse on my part, so I'm going to try and omit that mistake. Otherwise, it would be 2 segments in a row where that's occurred, which probably wouldn't look good for whoever verifies this on SDA. I might also try to omit the movement error from segment 7 as well. Unfortunately for me, both segments are pretty well done as they are right now, so beating them will likely be hard to do.
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undamned
Lyus
Hyper Solid Shooting!
Posts: 120
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Post by undamned on Mar 3, 2009 11:42:45 GMT -5
Quite the perfectionist, you are -ud
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Mar 4, 2009 1:49:48 GMT -5
Phew, barely got a better segment 7, just as I was about to give up. It's only 4 frames faster, and I suspect it could possibly be improved by about 10-15 more frames, but that's definitely more suited for a tool-assisted speedrun (TAS). Here's the new attempt, if anyone's interested: LINK IN FIRST POST Quite the perfectionist, you are -ud Well, you kind of have to have that mindset when doing a speedrun. Although, if I really wanted perfection, I'd be doing a TAS instead. Even a short segment - such as the one above - is next to impossible to perform optimally under normal circumstances.
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soylent
Dinvel
VGM addict
Posts: 95
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Post by soylent on Mar 6, 2009 6:17:53 GMT -5
Thoroughly enjoying this. ^^ Keep up the good work!
I'm definitely sure you have to talk to Reah and read the books before you can acquire the amulet. That's one of the things I usually forget and end up backtracking to Luta as soon as I get the book of Gemma. To no avail.
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