korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Mar 4, 2013 22:27:00 GMT -5
I appreciate the compliment, but quite frankly, the run could've been a good deal better. Anyway, I was messing around with Ys I Complete in Hourglass a little bit tonight (can't wait until that gets mouse support for a proper TAS), and found out that one can actually receive as much as 2,000 EXP when choosing to rescue Feena early. Curiously, despite my best efforts, I was not able to get the other bug (accept/refuse) to go up to 1,500 EXP per refusal; I think it's probably only a frame or two off. Too bad, I was thinking that if it was higher, it could be a TAS' primary source of EXP, but I guess not. In any event, the 2,000 EXP thing is not something I've ever been able to pull off legit, so it's not something I'm going to go back for with my new segmented run. And speaking of Ys I, I've been giving single segment runs a try lately. It's actually more fun than I thought it would be, especially seeing as how Jenocres and the Mine are the main worries. I doubt I'll ever be able to incorporate the new segmented strats (the Feena EXP glitches would likely be the main run killer, alongside failed Golden Pedestal item warps), but I'm slowly working my way up to incorporating the old route. Obviously, some things are done differently, such as equipping all armor, as well as collecting an additional piece in Darm Tower for Yogleks and Omulgun (though I hope to omit that at some point). And unless I can somehow get consistent with the accept/refuse portion of the Feena EXP glitch (really difficult, even for a segmented run), I'll probably have to stick with a Short Sword route, as the Long Sword one is only beneficial with those incorporated (at least, I think so). So far, my best time is just over 40 minutes, and I know more can come off, but just how close I can get to my segmented time (38:31), I don't know. EDIT: Wow, just got a 38:53 single segment time (wasn't live, but I did stream the recording later). That's only 22 seconds off from my segmented time... I think it may indeed be possible to beat my old time this way, but this was a pretty good run. I will probably need to forgo the Mirror use/Healing Potion in the Mine (the Darm Tower potion is just too risky to go without, especially since I need to be full health to stand a decent shot at Yog & Omu without armor). Aside from that, Vagullion could've gone a bit better, but I'm not sure if all of that will be enough to beat it. I'm afraid I'll need to add in the Golden Pedestal item warp, which I hate doing.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Mar 9, 2013 0:59:02 GMT -5
Nearly completed a run that probably would've beat the segmented time by 7 seconds... and that was with a bad Vagullion time (about 1:15 - segmented run is about 40 seconds). By my estimations, I can theoretically achieve a time of 37:45 or slightly lower with the old route. But, the only real new development between this and the old run is the "item warp" for 3 chests (not attempting the Golden Pedestal one yet, as it's a pain - would save 5 more seconds), which only amounts to 12 seconds saved. I mean, there are a couple of other little things, such as getting more EXP in the Shrine/Mine, but I don't think it should add up to an additional ~30 seconds saved (especially considering that I'm detouring for Healing Potions, and not doing little stuff like optimizing most mouse movement yet). It's rather hard to believe the segmented run can be beaten "easily" like this (it's hard to finish a run with this setup, but it still isn't as tough as I was expecting to come close to that time), but it makes me wonder just how much time the Long Sword route will save (and in all honesty, I think a "proper" Short Sword route would come pretty close to the same time, just that the Long Sword one would have several quicker/extra Shrine enemy kills). I'm really anxious to get back to work on that new segmented run soon, as this is kinda embarrassing. (Ys II? What's that? )
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Aug 23, 2013 15:58:00 GMT -5
Finally managed to beat the old Ys I segmented time with a SS (old time is 38:31 - the other 4 seconds of the currently published run comes from the SDA "save anywhere" penalty). www.twitch.tv/korzic/c/2804292The new time is 38:20 (timing started at first movement frame, and ended upon first black frame after selecting to read Book Fact, which is how I believe the currently published run was timed). It uses the early Silver Sword route, as it generally seems to save about 10-15 seconds over the "normal" route (Long Sword + Feena glitches + normal Silver Sword would I think still be ideal, though probably unrealistic for a SS), plus it's a bit easier to finish a run (Shrine under-leveled sucks). Unfortunately, there were a couple stupid mistakes right before and after Vagullion (who himself wasn't too bad), which could've brought the time down to ~38:10 or so. Sub-38:00 is definitely possible, but I think that'll primarily depend on even better Vagullion luck (~25 seconds or so off the segmented time, but it can easily go much worse). In any event, I think this is something I'll continue to do for fun, but if something good enough comes along, I may consider submitting something. Not this though, too many ugly looking mistakes, plus it should be beatable fairly easily (well, disregarding the usual trouble spots =p - Jenocres, Shrine B2, Mine 1st visit, and Yog/Omu). The fact that I can even beat that old time via a SS is a bit shocking to me, but it shows that the old segmented run wasn't as optimized as I once thought. Not sure which run I want to continue first, though. :/
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jdkluv
Limendy
<Brandish Man>
Posts: 223
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Post by jdkluv on Aug 24, 2013 12:43:44 GMT -5
Your Twitch.Tv Avatar XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Aug 24, 2013 14:55:07 GMT -5
That's one of MP's works actually; I had nothing to do with it. =p
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Nov 23, 2013 21:27:23 GMT -5
Well, I got really bored this past month, and instead of trying one of the current segment attempts over and over again, I decided to do a TAS of Ys I Complete. There's still no mouse support for Hourglass, so it's already a little unoptimized just from that. That said, I put a lot of work into this, though there are still some minor errors I didn't go back for; I can't imagine much more than 10 seconds coming off the time, at least not without a route change. Speaking of which, the time comes out to 34:09 by SDA timing (first movement frame to first black frame after selecting to read Volume Fact). Anyway, here are some links: Encode (in case Youtube mangles the video) Hourglass movie file (game needs to be in Japanese, plus already have the walk/run option be set to hold Shift to walk) For the Hourglass file, someone with a pirated copy of the game wasn't able to get it to sync properly shortly after using the Mask of Eyes in the Shrine, so that may or may not play back correctly (it does for me). For those that do go with this option, please let me know if it syncs all the way through or not (I'm kinda thinking of doing a Nightmare TAS somewhere down the line, but probably not if there's a common desync issue). Do note that it does have an audio crash due to failing to play the intro AVI for some reason, but it's still there upon capturing (unfortunately, the audio does get briefly cut off from time to time, which is apparently a common issue for games played via Hourglass). OK, now for some more detailed comments on the run. Text box skips can happen for the close-up dialogue that's still on the game screen (so, not shops, for instance); however, this seems to be based on a frame rule, but it should always be worth it to sacrifice some frames to get it (not sure if it's just the first of a group of such text or not - seems so). Some small time can be saved by doing a couple of these when speaking to Sara (once before, and once after agreeing to help her), and once when first dropping Feena off in Zeptik Village. In a similar vein, item obtained text boxes can be cleared a few frames faster than alternating "confirm" every other frame by holding it down at a specific point. There may or may not be some more small savings from both the Sara's Crystal and Shrine Key messages.
Narrow corridors are extremely precise to slip into without bumping on the corners, as your position can differ ever so slightly based on how you move (alternating diagonal movement with straight up/down or left/right is typically how I approached these). Sometimes, it's better to accept a corner bump instead of slipping in seamlessly. In a similar vein, doors sometimes open 1 frame faster if approached from a certain diagonal angle, though cases like Jeba's house, it's not worth it.
As for Jenocres, he seems to appear faster/slower depending on when you hit him. He disappears in the same amount of time, so as long as you hit him in that appearance, you'll never lose time. Sometimes movement will also affect when he appears, so even hitting him at the same frame with differing movement can alter the time. Not sure how optimized the fight is in light of that.
Nygtilger can technically be done a little faster by accepting some damage, however, the text box upon inspecting the weakened wall waits for your health to refill before displaying the text, so I don't think it was worth it. With the exception of Yogleks & Omulgun, it doesn't matter if you're at full health or not after a boss. While taking damage during a boss is typically OK, it's usually not worth it for normal enemies, as it slows your momentum. In the case of Yogleks & Omulgun, the hit before grabbing the Flame Sword, as well as the one in the boss battle itself were worth it due to the fast rate of HP restored (HP was restored in a 3/6/6 manner, so the hits taken needed to not exceed a 9 or 8 frame loss respectively (45 and 38 HP)).
Vagullion's pattern seems to be influenced by not only what frame you enter the battle, but also how and when you hit him (from the side, from the front, etc.), and probably also how you move afterwards. He seems to have a very limited amount of patterns based on those things, but bringing up the menu (Escape key) can produce more patterns, depending on when you activate it. Ideally, you wouldn't need menu manipulations at all, but I needed 3 to produce this pattern (also, a couple frames were wasted by not entering the boss door optimally, but even with menu manipulations, he seemed to go down a little bit slower when starting the fight ASAP).
When attacking normal enemies, it's almost always better to attack them at a diagonal angle, instead of the traditional off-center method (up/down, left/right). Diagonal attacks give a 1 frame delay before moving again, but traditional off-center gives something like 3. The exceptions are if an enemy is pinned against a wall, or if you'd have to move too far off to the side for a diagonal attack to work. With regards to pinned enemies, just holding the directional button isn't always best. It's usually better to back off for a frame or two, as this typically allows the next hit to land faster. Even so, pinning an enemy needs to be weighed against manipulating it along the way to your next destination. There may be some time saved for the first Dinvel or two (sworded Shrine enemies) by not simply holding the directional button when pinned.
With regards to enemies being in favorable positions, it appears to be based on what frame you enter the screen, as well as how you move afterwards. Most of the Minea Plains enemies should have been manipulated out of the way, though I think one or two are still necessary to reach level 7 before Nygtilger in a timely manner (you can see I was 20 EXP over when hitting level 7, and 220 over when hitting level 10). Those aside, the one enemy placement I'm unhappy with is the one in Darm Tower after backtracking through the Devil's Corridor; perhaps delaying reading the 4th and 5th Books of Ys would help manipulate it more favorably, but that basically means keeping the Evil Ring effect on longer (best to do all that subscreen related stuff with as few returns to the game screen as possible). Only a 3-4 frame loss, as well as needing to bump the next enemy aside. There was also one extra armored enemy during the final stretch to Vagullion's room that wouldn't have been there if I rounded a certain corner perfectly, so unfortunately, some small time needed to be sacrificed to make him appear so I could hit level 10 sooner. Some other ones in Darm Tower I'd prefer not to bump/kill (Evil Ring/Silver Sword guards are the only ones that "need" killing), but it's just a 1-2 frame loss to bump/kill them.
The Darm Tower balconies actually do not have the doorways equally spaced apart from one another. Even though you'd arrive at the same doorway by going either right or left, one direction will get you there 35 frames sooner than the other; the optimal direction seems to vary from floor to floor.
The Monocle was equipped after the Mirror usage because the game needs to wait for the Mirror animation to finish regardless. So, I know it doesn't look quite as pretty from then on, but it's worth it time-wise to do so.
Some other small errors with subscreen cursor optimization (when at the Hammer, Mirror, Mask of Eyes, or Blue Necklace, you can hold down to advance the cursor to where the Piece of Paper would be; in addition, some early equipment/inventory menus may not have utilized holding a directional button to immediately be one square ahead), but these will essentially be voided once mouse support is added. If anyone's wondering, this probably won't be submitted to TASVideos, partially due to the above errors/current lack of mouse support, but also because they usually prefer you to play on the hardest difficulty, and this run was done on Easy. That said, I might do Nightmare at a later date, but in addition to the potential desync issue, things will have to be re-timed for Nightmare - a process I very much do not look forward to doing. What I probably will do at some point is a run of Ys II Complete, though apparently, it also contains desync issues right from the start. Assuming it works, though, would people rather see the normal route speedrun, or the one that abuses glitched Time Attack? Either way, I probably won't start that one for a while. EDIT: Seems Ys II Complete is very desync prone, almost as soon as the movie starts (and it's not always at the exact same point). In addition, I generally have trouble getting the Hourglass window to properly show (practically essential for keeping an eye on frame numbers, for instance), plus the game speed up option doesn't seem to function (makes checking the movie for oddities a lot simpler). So, unless there's something I'm missing, the game seems unable to be TASed reliably in its current state. EDIT 2: Ys II Eternal on the other hand doesn't seem to have desync issues (or an audio crash after the intro like in Complete). Still can't seem to speed it up, but I believe this version can be TASed in Hourglass' current state. Although, given the apparent speed limitation, I probably won't do so.
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korzic
Chryolos
Hmm, something feels off...
Posts: 697
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Post by korzic on Mar 30, 2017 22:31:20 GMT -5
I recently made a significant improvement to my single segment Ys II time, about 4:20 better than my previous personal best. There's also a separate link to an encode with the full ending (because of the Goddesses being nude). I've uploaded commentary as well, though the video quality is a bit worse. Anyway, the run, timed at 1:05:02 traditional RTA timing ("New Game" to final hit on Darm): EncodeCommentaryThe reason it's so much better is because it incorporates a lot of what I want to do with the segmented route, mainly a much tighter gold route. That said, I know there's at least 40 seconds of improvement (almost certainly more, though I don't really know how much - I'm blindly guessing around 70), though I realistically don't expect much more than 20 seconds to come off in a SS setting (one of my unfinished runs was ahead by that much getting the Floodgate Key from Keith). I may still do full runs from time to time, but if I never finish the segmented run (still poking at it from time to time), I'm pretty pleased with the way this run turned out. Dunno if I want to submit it to SDA or not, though. Anyway, aside from general optimizations, the segmented run can still improve via no armor whatsoever (something I'm considering doing eventually if I do more full game runs - Lord help me), Roda Fruit instead of a Cruberry for Druegar (full MP, makes a ~10 second quicker kill slightly more viable, but is extremely risky), and no herbs for Dalles. Actually, I believe each of the bosses can be improved from what was shown in this run, but I'm not sure by how much. I'm also starting to lean towards getting Shield Magic even for a segmented run, just because of how often Darm usually hits you, and since I'll be without armor... yeah.
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