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Post by sushi on Oct 3, 2010 12:13:06 GMT -5
Since I'm already on a roll, I should go ahead and say I don't find the soundtrack particularly impressive either. There are probably 2-4 tracks that really impress me, the rest are just "good music". That's not particularly impressive by Ys standards. ...shame. *realises just how subjective music is*
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Post by HJ on Oct 3, 2010 14:06:23 GMT -5
Yeah, I got nothin'. As mentioned above, I consider it one of the best games of the 16-bit era, with one of the best soundtracks of the 16-bit era. So clearly, HJ and I simply disagree. This annoys me, though: I understand you dislike non-canon things, but IT STILL EXISTS. Just as the Metroid Prime games (which are all non-canon) exist. And once again I reiterate, Dawn of Ys isn't ENTIRELY non-canon. For years after its release, it was THE canonical version of Ys IV. Falcom flip-flopped on that after several years -- so what if you'd played it in 1993, loved it, and THEN found out it was non-canon? How would you have reacted then? And again, as I pointed out, ALL Ys games are canon, based on the structure of the series. So I still don't even recognize Dawn of Ys as non-canon -- as far as I'm concerned, Dawn of Ys, Ys Online, the Ys anime, and even Ys Strategy are part of the Ys canon, since the Ys canon is basically just a set of stories as differently interpreted by historians. The canon officially states that the exact circumstances of Adol's adventures are unknown, and are very much open to interpretation... so canonically, there IS no real canon, since Falcom openly allows the canon to be rewritten as needed! Even Falcom still recognizes Dawn of Ys, clearly, since they're still using art from it as their official Ys IV art, rather than Mask of the Sun. And heck, on the subject of the Ys I & II anime, you do realize Falcom co-produced it, right? That says something, right there! It says that "this is not part of series canon, but WE STILL ENDORSE IT." -Tom Actually, I looked around and couldn't find any decisive proof that the Metroid Prime games aren't canon. Please show me an official statement that actually states they aren't. I remember I was furious when I first found out and actually believed that they were non-canon, though, because that would just have been tragic. It was and is by far the best and most interesting story in the Metroid series if you ask me. Anyway, saying it doesn't exist might have been wording it wrong, but it's not "real" within the series' universe, I guess. If Adol does something awesome in the game, then it doesn't really add anything to how I view him as a person because it's not true. Similar to fanfics, really. If some weirdo writes a fic about Adol having sex with Keith in Ys II, that doesn't mean it happened. To me, those two things are the same. Then I would be mad that Falcom just told me "lolol you wasted your time". You're right, and, if they rewrite it again and make the game canon once more, I'll gladly play it.
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Post by yotaka on Oct 3, 2010 14:19:17 GMT -5
I think they still use Dawn artwork because there isn't any MotS artwork (since Dawn used to be canon and thus got all the attention). I agree with you on the rest though, except the bit about Ys Strategy. When a game is about as fun to play as having red-hot needles shoved under your fingernails and it doesn't really make sense to fit it in the timeline... I'll count everything else Falcom didn't directly make as quasi-canon under their structure, even the Taito games (they tried and failed but at least they tried) but Strategy can get stuffed.
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Post by Peytral on Oct 3, 2010 14:33:52 GMT -5
And then there's the whole 'fanfictions usually sucking' and the whole 'Dawn of Ys' plot being more interesting that Mask of the Sun's'.
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Post by HJ on Oct 3, 2010 14:37:40 GMT -5
Well, I like legends too. But if King Arthur or some kind of all-knowing being appeared before me and said "this is how it actually happened, that other telling of the story is false" then I would believe it, even if King Arthur had made the mistake of telling me otherwise in the past. Honestly, most of that just sounds like a way to justify considering the events from Dawn of Ys when forming your opinion on the Ys characters, but that's not a road I'm willing to go down. Anyway, spin-offs and non-canon games can be recognized by companies too. Using the Metroid series as an example, Hunters and Pinball have both explicitly been stated to be non-canon, but that doesn't mean they're not endorsed by Nintendo. Anyway, do you want to agree to disagree? My game finished downloading, so I'm not really interested in arguing anymore. Edit: Oh man, I guess not. If you guys designed a game built around the Ys universe, I wouldn't play it. If you specifically asked me to in order to provide feedback that's something else, though, as that would be contributing to a community that I like more than anything else. If nobody ever asked me to play it though, then I wouldn't. Not even if people here liked it. Peytral: Yeah, no. That's probably a much more asinine statement than anything I've said so far.
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Post by yotaka on Oct 3, 2010 14:38:53 GMT -5
If some weirdo writes a fic about Adol having sex with Keith in Ys II, that doesn't mean it happened. You do realize that mentioning a crazy fanfic topic curses it into existence, right? Just watch, in a couple of days the interwebs will be flooded with Adol/Keith stories. I'm going to have to suggest an Aisha/Cruxie story to restore balance to the Force. What if ALoY's members got together and designed their own Ys game Best thing that's been said in this thread so far!
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Post by Peytral on Oct 3, 2010 14:49:02 GMT -5
What if ALoY's members got together and designed their own Ys game Best thing that's been said in this thread so far! True that.
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Post by Rebel40000 on Oct 3, 2010 17:12:02 GMT -5
Hey Wyrd, I'd take what Sakamoto says about the Metroid series with a grain of salt. I think he's just butt-hurt that someone other than him got to work on the franchise.
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Post by Ranzor on Oct 3, 2010 17:40:21 GMT -5
The thing that really makes the Prime games seem non-canon is the Space Pirates. In Prime they're a thinking race with strict hyerarchy and scientific development, whereas in Other M they have, as in the manga, a hive mind who needs a leader like Mother Brain to be organized. Without it, they revert to a feral state.
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Post by HJ on Oct 3, 2010 17:43:31 GMT -5
Seriously? I didn't know that, I thought Mother Brain was just their leader, not acting as their actual brain. That's kind of disappointing... All the lore in Prime and their high-tech laboratories and bases really make them seem like a huge threat, and a major force to be reckoned with. Compared to that, a bunch of hive minded creatures is just... not cool.
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Post by Ranzor on Oct 3, 2010 17:46:11 GMT -5
I agree that the Prime version of the Space Pirates is much cooler. If I find a link to where I got that from, I'll post it.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Oct 3, 2010 18:47:35 GMT -5
I think I get both HJ's and Wyrd's views. But I'd like to add some things. - The difference between a fanfic Ys game/story and a non-canon Ys game/story is that the former can never be canon someday, while the latter can be; - About that Metroid quote Wyrd brought up, to me it's clear it should be read as "You got two different series within a series. Have fun.". I think that's like Falcom's position regarding, say, Ys III and YsF (there are good reasons as to why YsF was never called "Ys III: The Oath in Felghana" nor "Ys III ETERNAL" or anything). From what I see, HJ is satisfied by playing games for the story, independently of how good they are as games themselves, so I find it natural for him to seek the "actual story", that is, whatever is considered canon, and thus not allow other things to interfere with that "perfect view", such as non-canon versions of the story of whatever he played/read/watched/etc.. The reason as to why I don't agree with HJ on that in the case of Ys games, though, is because, as it's been brought up before by Wyrd, whether an Ys story is considered canonical or not can change at any given time. And it changes the WHOLE freaking time. XD It's unstable. Therefore, in my opinion, I find it pointless to limit what I decide to play based on what's canonical or not, for Ys' case. But I do have to say... HJ also said he WOULD play something that was once uncanon if one day it became canon. That also makes sense. (No one is able to judge a game before playing it, though. And people should avoid judging a game too much before finishing it, as well. And videos will never live up to the actual experience, in absolutely no given way. That much I do have to state, and this isn't something an individual can argue against.) And from what I see, Wyrd's point of view could be summarized as: "If it had Falcom's permission to be made, or was made by Falcom themselves, there's totally no reason to hold back, ESPECIALLY if it's fun. That's what matters.". I pretty much agree with that point of view, too. But I personally do seek all that's canonical. But considering the series instability, I also like to see the games' and other stories as legends, told in their own way... to some extent. As long as licensed. Anyway, in the end: no one is wrong or right. P.S.: I think they still use Dawn artwork because there isn't any MotS artwork (since Dawn used to be canon and thus got all the attention). Then what avatar is that that I see? P.S.2: Ys IV Discussion thread. Here we debated a bit about the stories of each version, too, but just not right off the bat.
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Post by Ranzor on Oct 3, 2010 18:50:12 GMT -5
About Prime, two things I found: - www.gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=134762look at that timeline. - a statement made by Sakamoto in an interview for a Spanish magazine. "Casi todo el mundo me pregunta por la serie Prime, que la meten dentro de la misma lĂnea, pero son distintas." which translated into "Almost everybody asks me about the Prime series, and they put it on the same line, but they are different." It really seems to be non-canon. As to the Space Pirates in the Sakamoto games, I think the manga describes it. Not completelly sure, though. You can read it at Metroid Database, for example.
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Post by yotaka on Oct 3, 2010 18:54:16 GMT -5
Then what avatar is that that I see? The avatar is Dawn of Ys artwork. Karna's appearance gives it away (her hair color and clothes are completely different colors in MotS) and it's listed as being from Dawn of Ys in the Legend of Illustrations book, along with every other IV-related picture. Now, if you know where I can find some actual artwork of MotS Karna (but not the A New Theory version please, she's like Karna's wimpy twin sister or something) I'd be happy to hear it.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Oct 3, 2010 19:32:06 GMT -5
Then what avatar is that that I see? The avatar is Dawn of Ys artwork. Karna's appearance gives it away (her hair color and clothes are completely different colors in MotS) and it's listed as being from Dawn of Ys in the Legend of Illustrations book, along with every other IV-related picture. Now, if you know where I can find some actual artwork of MotS Karna (but not the A New Theory version please, she's like Karna's wimpy twin sister or something) I'd be happy to hear it. .... Hm. xD OK, now you got me wondering... Something is fishy. I mean, I'm PRETTY damn sure there was ONLY one artist behind ALL The Dawn of Ys artworks. The same guy who did this, which is clearly completely different in style from the picture your avatar came from. I'm also extremely confident they were done by two different people, as I recall Deuce pretty much worshipping the TDoY artist, and other people referring to the picture your avatar came from as a Mask of the Sun picture. Hmmmm... (Obs.: I got both pictures from that same artbook you mentioned. GMF uploaded it and posted a link to it in that Ys IV thread I just linked to in my last post.) But... I have to admit I'm not sure about all this, now. I think one way to know it for SURE would be to check both Ys IV MotS's and Ys IV TDoY's game manuals to check WHERE the picture you are using is featured, if at all. Oh... xD I forgot to quote something in my previous post by the way! Lemme do so now. xD * Magic that's even more pointless than it was in V! I can't agree with that one, actually. xD In fact, I enjoyed its magic system. It was truly simple and not that grand, but I found it to be REALLY fun, and at times quite useful. Well, the ice magic DEFINITELY is. xD It doubles Adol's move speed, afterall! (When used as support magic, that is.) A few other things were nice about it, too. Like that Black Sword's warp magic, or even the support version of the flame magic, which increased attack power, if I recall correctly. I mean, to me, it had more use than in... well, Mask of the Sun, at least. xD I also liked that for each support magic, there was a downside to it, as well. Like... *states a few*: - Ice: raises move speed, lowers attack power; - Fire: raises attack power (IIRC), lowers DEF (IIRC); - Earth: raises defense, lowers move speed; - Etc.. Anyway... xD Just a very minor detail. XD
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Post by yotaka on Oct 3, 2010 19:50:44 GMT -5
Maybe I should have limited that to attack magic. Takes ages to cast, once you do you've got to aim it separately, said aiming sucks and it doesn't do nearly enough damage to make it worthwhile. Fascination's stat magic definitely helps make the game more bearable though, as does Eterno's warping (except that you get it so late). Oh, and Fustichia's magic takes way too long to cast to be useful in battle. Plus there's, what, three enemies in the entire game that can actually be hurt by it so the attack stuff is completely useless.
Also, the artist that did my avatar picture didn't do the other pictures in the book. In any case, it can't be a MotS picture because Karna's wearing her Dawn outfit as opposed to the green un-armored stuff she's got on in Mask. The hair color's also different but the picture is a bit stylized in that respect anyways. If you've got scans of the book you can go through and see that everything in it that comes from IV is labeled Dawn of Ys. Like I said though, if there is official MotS artwork out there I'd love to see it. Don't have a copy of the SNES game myself so I can't say what the manual may have included.
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Post by regalsin on Oct 3, 2010 20:21:18 GMT -5
Since this topic is starting to become derailed. 1. Metroid Prime is not a real Metroid Series at all. It is merly for fun. Imagine if the creator of Shenmue gets abducted by Mister Invader, and then they make "Shenmue prime". That is all what it is. It was nice at first but not real. 2. About DoY's artwork. The picture of Adol is a Cel, or computerized colored drawing that was scaned in. This could take at least, three differnt artists at work. The pictures with the nega-Adol and the rest of the cavity creeps , is a water colored, pen and ink etc drawing made for the book. While it could have been scanned blah balh blah. Both images are most likley worked on by the concept artist, which I could guess, while the same moved Adol into being almost in his present day state. If Adol was animated into a series during the time of this game, then we would have seen this Adol. It is the concept artist you are thinking about folks. These are both same drawing style for Adol, but the Water colored one is more closer to the original concept design. The other one is just Adol being animated on a cel via Acrylic/water color. you can even see the Air brush stroke on the plastic.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Oct 3, 2010 20:35:29 GMT -5
Maybe I should have limited that to attack magic. Takes ages to cast, once you do you've got to aim it separately, said aiming sucks and it doesn't do nearly enough damage to make it worthwhile. Fascination's stat magic definitely helps make the game more bearable though, as does Eterno's warping (except that you get it so late). Oh, and Fustichia's magic takes way too long to cast to be useful in battle. Plus there's, what, three enemies in the entire game that can actually be hurt by it so the attack stuff is completely useless. Fully agreed. xD There was even an item that cut casting speed off by half, but it wasn't good enough to make offensive magic useful. Hm, also, I guess I'll wait until someone checks their Ys IV SNES' manual or so. *whistles~*
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Post by HJ on Oct 4, 2010 2:25:57 GMT -5
... Not to be obnoxious, but that proves my point wonderfully: If you like the lore in the Prime games... then who cares if it's canon? It's a good story, right? So believe it! Take it as fact! It's a video game -- it's not like you're misrepresenting actual history here. You're simply legitimizing the creative endeavors of a game designer. That's it! A good example I thought of since earlier this morning is the Dragonlance series of books. The original "series canon" was written by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman... but after what, nine books?, they handed the reins to a whole legion of OTHER authors, many of whom wrote books that didn't quite fit with the Dragonlance lore Weis and Hickman had written previously. But that doesn't in any way invalidate those books -- some of them are still quite good, telling excellent stories that remain fan favorites to this very day. Ultimately, lore is irrelevant. If a story is good, then take it as a good story -- separate it in your mind from the series, and just enjoy it for the tale it has to tell! To deny yourself a story because it's not part of a series canon is no less silly than me disliking Metroid Prime for downgrading the effectiveness of the spider ball. (In my opinion, it's quite a bit MORE silly, in fact, but that's a whole other argument. And besides, even though I don't like what they did to the spider ball in Metroid Prime, I was still perfectly willing to play and enjoy the game, and gave it a fair shot, only eventually giving up on it because I simply WASN'T HAVING FUN.) My point is, if you can make fun of me for ranking the spider ball's limited usage as a mark against Metroid Prime, I don't see how you can then try to justify REFUSING TO ENJOY A GAME because its story isn't canon. You even said to me, in the Metroid topic, that I should judge the game on its own merits, rather than comparing it to previous Metroid titles... well, then you should judge Dawn of Ys on its own merits, rather than comparing it to other Ys titles! Do you at least get where I'm coming from? That's really my goal here, is understanding... -Tom Well, I care. I might still replay Metroid Prime at some point (the original at least, the sequels aren't really up to par although they're not bad) because I consider the gameplay and atmosphere alone worth it, but I wouldn't be able to enjoy the story as much anymore, especially not if it's destined simply to fade into the obscurity as we get more garbage plots like Other M's crammed into the series. That being said, I'm also still not convinced the Prime games aren't canon. That Sakimoto fellow never says that. They might be a side story, but that could just as well mean that they aren't essential to play in order to understand what's happening in the main overarching plotline of the series, not that they didn't happen. Anyway, yeah, I see where you're coming from. I'm just weird like this I guess. If I had more free time and a smaller backlog to work on in that free time, I might give Dawn of Ys a whirl, actually, but I just can't justify putting something non-canon ahead of something canon when I have so little (guess it's not really little by some standards, but it is by mine!) time to make do with.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Oct 4, 2010 21:58:02 GMT -5
Ys IV manual scans for ye! Ys IV: Mask of the Sun (SFC)[/u] Ys IV: The Dawn of Ys (PCE):[/u] [/quote] WOW~!!!!!!!!! !!!!! Thanks for those a lot, man!!!!! *SAVES!* Ahem xD So it looks like none of the artworks featured in the artbook were featured in both Ys IVs' game manuals. Also, I guess your wish was granted now, yotaka. *sees awesome Ys IV MotS Karna artwork* Hm, though it seems whoever provided the artwork for Ys IV TDoY's manual also provided most of those Ys IV artworks in that Falcom artbook, as well, except for the one yotaka is currently using as an avatar. But yeah, I'll admit: I'd rather consider it TDoY artwork, because the artbook says so and the Karna design depicted in it is indeed TDoY's, as yotaka pointed out. Wyrd did bring up, though, that perhaps it could have been MotS artwork, but ended up being labelled as "TDoY" artwork, assuming that version was indeed the canonical one back then, and thus Ys IV could only be referred to by its canon subtitle. But that will likely remain as a speculation. xD
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