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Post by HJ on Nov 26, 2009 4:14:18 GMT -5
Disregarding the AI characters (which I thought were terrible, just for the record), you can't even use items when you're burning, and the other two are usually about to die or "knocked down" from yet another of it's annoyingly unfair attacks. Honestly, the game is infuriating. Not because it's difficult (though it is), it's just littered with bad design choices. This is one game we'll never agree on, it seems. And honestly, it's kinda tiring when you're the only one out of 3 people discussing it who hates it. Can't we just agree that Ys games generally make better action RPGs and leave it at that?
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Post by Red Hairdo on Nov 26, 2009 9:47:17 GMT -5
We can, but whenever you bring up something about SoM that ISN'T in SoM or isn't the game's fault, I will correct. xD For example, just now, you CAN use items while you are burning; just press select to switch to another character and use the herb item with him/her instead. (And, of course, never take a boss underleveled.)
Actually, instead of talking about SoM or any Ys game, we should talk about, erm, the new Lufia game. xD So, yeah, hooray. xD
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Post by HJ on Nov 26, 2009 9:58:41 GMT -5
Well, that's the thing, you can't use items with the other characters if they're stunned or dead, and the tiger has several attacks that stuns. And telling me to go level grind is a flawed argument, because that's a frustrating chore in itself. Hell, I just (and I mean just before writing this) replayed the start of the game on my PSP, and the very first boss stunlocked me with a blend of crystal gem magic and an undodgeable scythe attack that knocks me down. It's the first boss! Thank god that old dude was there to heal me, but still, that sets the precedent for the rest of the bosses, which are broken, frustrating and unfair. That's a big problem which IS in SoM and IS the game's fault, and it still troubles me to see everyone deny it. The hit detection, however, was noticeably better than when I played it on the Virtual Console, so points for that. Now I might give it a 4/10 instead of a 2. After playing the prologue my intense dislike of the game welled up again and canceled out my previous fatigue. >_> As for the Lufia, what's there to discuss? It's a fairly flashy trailer mostly with emphasis on cool CG movies and not how the game actually works. Then again, do trailers ever show the bad aspects of a game? Nobody wants a trailer about a guy walking around in a cave for an hour to level up for the next boss.
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Post by Justin on Nov 26, 2009 11:55:04 GMT -5
Great, we have the making of another fanboy The tiger isn't that hard man, as I shown in the video. Its timing, patience, and strategy. Being at a higher level does help, and it is a viable way to suggest success. In Ys, if you get to a very hard boss, its usually a simple matter of grinding out a few levels.
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Post by HJ on Nov 26, 2009 12:14:28 GMT -5
What I mean to say is that grinding sucks, so if the game requires that of you sometimes, then yes, that's bad.
It's a bad thing in Ys games, too. They're just games, not gods. They have flaws like every other game, as far as I'm concerned. Just generally very negligible ones.
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Post by Justin on Nov 26, 2009 12:33:46 GMT -5
Eh, I get what you are saying about grinding, but there are times in an RPG, where you can totally get away with not leveling up. Its not the games fault if you are underleveled. For example, I made it to the end of FF7 in my high 30's. Needless to say Sephiroth kicked my ass, and I had to spend some time leveling up. I think the tiger is the same kind of thing. It doesn't hurt the cause to have some buffed up stats
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Post by HJ on Nov 26, 2009 12:49:02 GMT -5
I defeated everything in my path on the way to the Tiger, and if that isn't enough, then yeah, I would say it's the game's fault. Real RPGs are different, because constantly running from battles will have a tremendous impact on your level, leading to the situation you described.
In a (sadly) large number of RPGs there will indeed be a point where you have to train yourself up after hitting a difficulty curve, but I still think it's annoying. If you don't flee from lots of encounters and the game still makes you grind, it's just bad balancing, and you can't really justify unreasonable difficulty spikes with it.
This is a minor issue regarding the whole SoM debate we've got going, though. I think the game has countless flaws, but we're pretty much just flogging a dead horse by now, aren't we?
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Post by Justin on Nov 26, 2009 13:57:53 GMT -5
Dragon Quest requires grinding big time, each game in the series. I don't think that is a balancing issue, its a cultural thing. Yank RPG's don't require as much grinding, but they are more open ended, which is something I see as a total waste of time. Its personal preference.
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Post by HJ on Nov 26, 2009 14:36:18 GMT -5
True enough, but at least DQ is kind enough to provide metal slimes and generally you're grinding for money to buy equipment, not actual levels. Besides, this is an action RPG, not a traditional RPG. What happened to skillful dodging and well placed attacks? In this genre, leveling up is supposed to level the playing field in case you aren't able to read the boss' pattern and dodge properly. SoM completely throws this out the window and makes you grind levels and magic to enter a "stunlock them with magic before they do it to you" duel, which sucks. And while I could forgive the level grinding, the magic grinding is something I will never accept, because that simply takes it too far.
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Post by Justin on Nov 26, 2009 14:41:40 GMT -5
Watch that video again dude, you have to move down out of the action during certain times. You can spam hit with magic, or charge hit.
You also have to realize this game is how old? Refinement came with time, and while it had faults, Secret of Mana had few viable contenders when it was released.
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Post by HJ on Nov 26, 2009 14:54:34 GMT -5
That guy's using the bow all the time, though, it's not that easy if you're a sword kinda guy. If you just run away and pelt it with arrows from a distance that's not especially unfair for you, but really boring. Besides, he got lucky that it didn't magic spam him. Which isn't to say later bosses won't, the tiger isn't the most spam happy boss, it's just a large and unexpected difficulty spike in a previously easy game. Magic also breaks your charge, so that's a no go against spammer bosses. And if your magic is too weak, you'll run out of MP before they die, and then you're still screwed.
Yes, I realize it's old. It was probably good for it's time, but I don't care about that when people are saying it's good today. The first Zelda game was good for it's time too, but that game sucks in today's world. You won't see anyone saying that one's a time-transcending masterpiece.
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Post by Justin on Nov 26, 2009 15:01:03 GMT -5
How is that the games fault? That is the strategy you need to use, and if you don't like it, then its not the games problem. If you like using a sword, but a boss is hard, then its your fault that you need to grind.
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Post by Varion on Nov 26, 2009 15:07:19 GMT -5
Different styles of gameplay have always had different advantages and disadvantages though. Like if you choose a fire starter you're going to find it much harder to beat the rock gym than someone who picked a water starter will, but you'll have the advantage over the grass gym. Or like how I trash De Rol Le and Vol Opt as a force, yet have to be babied with revival items on Dark Falz by hunters. Insert relevant example for your favourite game here.
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Post by Justin on Nov 26, 2009 15:16:32 GMT -5
FF1 4 Fighter playthrough vs FF1 4 White Mage playthrough
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Post by HJ on Nov 26, 2009 15:34:14 GMT -5
How is that the games fault? That is the strategy you need to use, and if you don't like it, then its not the games problem. If you like using a sword, but a boss is hard, then its your fault that you need to grind. I didn't say it was, I just said being restricted entirely to bows is boring. That was just a little aside, though, you ignored the other stuff I said, which were my main issues points.
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Post by Justin on Nov 26, 2009 15:40:05 GMT -5
No I read those too, and they tied in pretty well with the comment I quoted. Its not the games problem you have a style preference. There are bosses in that game that are easy with a Sword instead of Magic, or long distance weapons. That's why the game gives you a variety, you're supposed to use them all. So the game isn't hampered by your dislike of grinding, because its not needed. Its hampered because you don't like using all of the tools it provides for you. I think many of these "countless flaws" have more to do with your own personal preferences, than actual game problem. Not saying there isn't any though, as there is hit detection issues, really stupid ai, and some unfinished level design.
Secret of Mana is not a finished game, or in the "finished sense" we'd all like to think. It was originally developed for the unfinished SFC-CD add on, and had to be drastically altered once that project hit the dirt. Because of this, its only natural for some issues becoming more noticeable. In all honesty, with what Square had to deal with, I think they did a good job.
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Post by HJ on Nov 26, 2009 15:45:39 GMT -5
How is it personal preference not to want to spend forever grinding it up every time I get new magic so I won't get trounced by the next boss, or the boss after that? That's just a good old-fashioned unreasonable demand. Even if you accept grinding, the amount you have to do to keep your magic up to speed is ridiculous.
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Post by Justin on Nov 26, 2009 15:53:24 GMT -5
You are supposed to use the magic on a frequent basis, which is why there are restorative items sold in each town. I get what you are saying, trust me, but really the way we've learned to play video games has changed. Its not going to mesh as well with the older titles, you are absolutely right, but that's no fault of the game. To say SOM, or even Zelda, isn't "transcending" is somewhat a very personal statement. Last year, I played through Zelda on my GCN via the collection. I enjoyed the hell out of it, but it took me a bit of grace time to get into the games "Groove". You get what I mean at all? Its like watching old films, which are waaaaaaay different to the way film is done now. You almost need to adopt a different mind frame to get some of the nuances. This is my point with SOM; By today's standards, yes there are some glaring issues with the game. But by playing the game with the mentality of the early 90's gamer, its really not all that bad. Comparatively with other titles around its release window, it was a fantastic game. The real question here, is do you grasp what it is to enjoy enjoy retro titles? Or is everything always up for current debate by present industry standards? I'd like to hope not PS - Thanks for the quick replies. Its great chatting with someone who is quick to keep the conversation going
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Post by HJ on Nov 26, 2009 16:02:18 GMT -5
I DID use magic on a frequent basis, but it still wasn't progressing at a very impressive rate. Well, maybe we define frequently different, but suffice it to say, I didn't neglect my magic. I'm certainly not unsuited for retro games, though. Terranigma is one of my favorite games, I really enjoyed Startropics (a NES game), I'm playing Soul Blazer right now and enjoying it, etc. Me and SoM just don't click. Some of it is personal preference; I don't like the charge system, for example, which is a pretty big part of SoM. I can hardly remember, because I've been discussing this game for a while now, but I think the reason I was so tenacious about debating this was because people were giving me the impression that they thought the game was virtually flawless, which I just disagree with. At some point, it turned into something more personal about me and my feelings about this game and all it's aspects. Well, it's good for my post count, so I won't complain. Ahem, but I kinda went off on a tangent there. Like I said, don't mistake me for a new-age purist, because I love my retro every once in a while. And no problem, you're pretty quick yourself. Usually when I chat with someone like this on a forum, the discussion will go on for a day or two and die out because one of us forgets all about it, in part thanks to the horribly slow pace, so it's nice to enjoy a well-paced conversation for once.
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Post by Justin on Nov 26, 2009 16:09:37 GMT -5
Heh, I'm not ignorant of the games issues, but hey at least it isn't half as bad as the sequel. SD3 should have been released here a long time ago, but man does that game need more time in the shop.
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