Christianity

[Incog Neato]

Blargh. I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here. This topic isn't meant to be offensive so I hope no one takes offense. :/

It's just something I wanted to get off my chest and was looking to get some insight from you folks as well.

Basically, it just ... sort of bothers me how some people in the world seem to be devout Christians yet they can have such a nasty tongue and attitude. This was a case-in-point for me at work where this co-worker went to church every Sunday, had all these pictures of Jesus on her desk and also could be found reading from some little booklet every day. However, she could be so rude and so selfish.

I thought that the New Testament at least asks people to treat others with respect and also to forgive others for their wrong-doings. Maybe she was doing selective reading or something? (Though I don't know denomination she's under (like Catholicism, etc.) since I never asked so who knows? Maybe she was following one that didn't acknowledge the NT.)

It's like these sort of people just believe in something but don't really understand, demonstrate or practice the goodwill that's supposed to come out following the religion.

Or maybe I'm just igonarant and expect them to be nicer? Afterall, we're all human.

I suppose my real issue is what are these people really doing with their beliefs?

[Nalacakes]

I don't know. People are people, really? I don't think many polite, well-mannered people, religious or nay, really set out to be snappy or rude. But we all lose our temper and say or do things we regret sometimes. Whether you're religious or not really has nothing to do with it. Like you said, we're all human~

I was raised Protestant, and attended a Christian junior school. But my beliefs have changed a lot since then. I don't really know what I'd describe myself as now, but I'm certainly not Christian anymore. ^^; Still, even as a non-Christian, I think most decent people naturally end up following many of the principles that form the heart of Christianity, regardless of their actual religious beliefs or lack thereof. Things like forgiveness, mutual respect, and so on are...pretty universal? Or should be, anyway.

Still, following them in theory, and following them 100%, all the time, no-matter-what-happens is... Not always so easy, even if you feel you have God breathing down your neck. ^^; I think both Christians and non-Christians struggle with being polite and courteous all the time, as much as we all might want to.

I don't really see any reason to get more cross with a religious person who violates such principles than you would with someone non-religious. I don't see why you should get more cross with someone religious and snappy than someone just plain snappy. ^^;; Being religious doesn't mean you'll always be a saint, and being non-religious doesn't really give you any more right to be a devil. ^_~ Either way, if they're really trying to be good, and just put a foot wrong, I think you should forgive them. And if they're not even trying, and are just plain rotten? Umm...they're probably not worth your time. ^^;

I don't know. To me, it's about how people go about redeeming themselves afterwards. Everyone is going to say or do bad things at some point. So when it comes down to it, all that really matters to me is that I realise when I've done something wrong, and try to make it up to people. If others do the same... I'll never bear them any ill will~ And I'm sure that a God that, according to the Bible, is all-loving and all-forgiving would...probably take the same attitude. I think if one of his children did something wrong, but genuinely regretted it, and apologised, he wouldn't be so mad. ^^;

I'd better get back to cooking~ Sorry if this came out a little incoherent. ^^;

[Ascended Mermaid]

Heh. I've got a hell of a sharp tongue on me too, and you'd think I'd be friendlier or feel safe around others. Case in point: some of them just listen to John 3:16 and would rather pay the price of their actions than change altogether. I'm not sure what the deal is with these so-called "rewards" they speak of, but I don't mind all of those because at the drop of a hat, I'd rather see humanity get punished for their sin. Yet go figure, I still talk to people on these message boards. I'm not *that* scared, but scared enough to the point where I won't even go outside. Last time I went out, I saw someone from my old youth group. Instead of demonstrating how a devout christian should act, I glared at the punk and bought myself a knife in the same store. (As a security blanket; I wouldn't actually use it!)

[Incog Neato]

Your post came out fine, Elin! I understood it all and I'm in the same position as you except I live in a Roman Catholic household.

While it's unrealistic to expect everyone to be super kind-hearted to everyone 24/7, I just wonder if people are just looking for something to believe in and not really listen to the messages from God? I mean, what exactly are you doing sitting in church every Sunday if you're not going to really reflect on the readings and how it relates to yourself?

In my co-worker's case, she just had ... I dunno ... attitude to begin with so it's not like she was suddenly snapping at people or suddenly rude. She was just like that. ^^

I suppose she just wasn't aware of her bluntness and such with other people and how uncomfortable her words can make others feel?

I dunno. I suppose I'm just being dorky and trying to link attitude to religious teachings. .___.;;;

[Ascended Mermaid]

Hell, I'm too scared to go to church. X) I'm like a spider; I'll do my damnedest to scare people, but in the end, I'm the one who's frightened. Seriously. Buying a friggin knife after seeing a punk who crossed me at youth group? I wonder what his thoughts and feelings are; in the end, I just hope he knows better than to talk to me. I know I get freaked out easily, but damn. I care more about my own hide than anyone else's. If anyone looks like a threat to me, even if I just label them by their associates, damn right I'm gonna freak. Hell, my family was wondering what he did to set me off so fast in the first place. Anyway, read the subtext, as this closely relates to what I said a moment ago. I know I don't act as *ahem* would want me to, but I dunno. It's just hard because I'm trusting in a being that I can't see or hear, when I don't even trust, care for, or even relate to the rest of the world. I've been asking myself for a while now how it's possible to trust someone like that, when their products are more rotten than the stink coming off of a burning pile of trash and compost. I mean, yeah, there is temptation, Satan and whatnot -- but creating someone who causes that and being the omnipotence He is, knowing what He'd create before He created it, is like saying that *ahem* created temptation, sin, Satan and the downfall of mankind Himself. Can you really trust someone like that?

[FM-77AV]

I am strongly against all religions and all religious behaviour, to the point that I get offended by any reference to religious things. I boycott everything related to it, I even refuse to say words with religious connections (such as the g-dude, or Jebus)

I have never voluntarily entered a church, and the last time I was in one was in elementary school, where we went to church the last day of school every year. It was extremely awful to be there, every time. I hated it, and I hated the school for making us go there. School has nothing to do with church, so I do not understand why they go there.

If I was more outgoing, and with more determination, I would try to make a rebellion about this, so that maybe they would change this. I have this in my blood, my grandmother used to appear on TV, as she was protesting about people not caring about the homeless. It probably didn't change much, but I admire her ambition, and courage.

[Yakra]

Actually, its like wyrdwad said. Such people pop up in any organized religion. The moment these certain people pass through the higher levels of their er... whatever religious training/goals, they tend to gain that certain haughtiness and rudeness? Ofcourse that doesn't mean all religious people are so and all non-religious people are not like so, but... some people do become like that. It's kind of like getting a degree to lord over people at times?

I can understand why you're complaining though. Its not dorky at all! Its just disappointing to see people who KNOW why they should be nice to everyone, act the worst of all.

There's this little all-women religious group here, Al-Huda. All the fashionable socialite aunties end up going there and come out a Quran in hand and scarves/duppattas on their head. But meh... when it comes to backbiting, backstabbing and rudeness, most of these ladies are the champions! And ofcourse, they never miss an oppertunity to tell you what a sinner you are either!

Jun 22, 2008 15:48:34 GMT -5 FM-77AV said:

I have never voluntarily entered a church, and the last time I was in one was in elementary school, where we went to church the last day of school every year. It was extremely awful to be there, every time. I hated it, and I hated the school for making us go there. School has nothing to do with church, so I do not understand why they go there.

I actually love churches! Not because of any religious reason though. They're just so damned gorgeous! Most of the one's one will find over here are leftovers from the British times soooo... pretty european architecture! :'DDD

Though you'd hate studying here! Islamiat was one of the compulsory subjects till O Levels! *snore*

[michaelchaoslord]

I rarely go to churches, but I still believe in the principles of God, Jesus, and Christianity. Its not that its a bad thing, I just find the church optional and even the church I go to said in the book that it was optional cause praying to a pope and or priest isn't what God Taught, you should pray to God and Jesus not a common man. I believe the only thing I've done that was horrible was cheating in Pokemon, I've never stole, deceived, or hurt anyone in my life. I'm actually considered a Softy along with my family, but would commit justice upon the wrong whenever the time came. Just because you go to church every sunday doesn't make you a good person, learning what Jesus and God taught and actually doing the good deeds make you good. A long time ago a lot of Rich Catholics and Christians owned slaves in the south, cause they didn't get it cause somehow they believe just going to church gets you into heaven. I would make an example with the crusades but that's too much of a topic for me. You shouldn't dwell too much on how Jesus died but rather how he lived also cause that's were you could find good pointers on how to treat others.

If I've offended anyone, I'm sorry.

[Red Hairdo]

I personally was raised as a Roman Catholic, but as I kept growing up and experiencing and getting to know many things, started being thoughtful and many other things, I became a person who is totally open-minded when it's about religion, yet I still tend to be as realistic and "scientific" as possible. My faith isn't really big, but it isn't obsolete either. Though I tend to get less and less attached to religions, but I totally respect the very religious people. And even so, like Elin pointed out, "being non-religious doesn't really give you any more right to be a devil". Even though I'm not much into religions, I try my best to be the most ethic person I can be.

People are people. We all have a part of our brains reserved for divine belief. Therefore we naturally seek a belief. And when we try to dismiss all sorts of beliefs, we get the feeling something is missing. (Belief can be more things besides religion. And I think wishes and other things also are stimulated by the same thing that "stimulates" religious belief.)

There are people who just fill in that need by being a part of a religion group. In the case of not very thoughtful people, they just keep going being part of a religion that the person itself won't think upon it to follow its very principles adequately. Which is what I think it could be the case of that co-worker you spoke of, nunuu.


I have many theories and I heard of some stuff about this topic. It's something I rather like to talk about as it is something pretty interesting. Human behavior as a whole, actually.

[Falcom Director of Fanservice]

Elin had my favorite post in this thread by far. Being a decent person is the duty of all people, religious or not. I do kinda feel more obligated to get angry at religious people who fail to uphold their tenants, given they have put an extra onus upon themselves to be good people by taking up the mantle of an organization that is supposed to be devoted to that. So it's like failing twice.

Also, Red is not completely correct. We do not have a need to believe in anything divine. Atheism is, after all, a very valid choice that people make. Some also choose to believe in causes, or intangible ideas, rather than anything personified into a deity. But perhaps I am reading too much into what you said when you meant divine.

Something that bothers me about the way religion tends to be presented, or at least in how I've seen it presented in my short lifetime, is that many people seem to emphasize the "Believe (and maybe don't be an asshole) and you'll get into Paradise" aspect. That seems a pretty, well, selfish and counterproductive reason to be religious. Every major religious creed emphasizes being good to your fellow man, and honoring the deity of your choice. Paradise is a reward for doing that, not the end goal that should be trump every other consideration. It's against the entire idea of love for others to focus on that. You aren't in it for yourself, you're in it because it will make the world around you better. In theory, you benefit from this, but that's not the point.

I suppose it's only human nature to see the benefit for yourself first. But it feels like the preachers and priests and such don't really emphasize this very well. But, this is from the outside looking in, I've not really attended a religious institution regularly at all, all my knowledge comes from study on the issue.

Also, for fairness, I'm an agnostic with some mild Christian tradition in my background.

[Majuunun]

As George Carlin(who recently died) once said...

"I don't have any beliefs or allegiances. I don't believe in this country, I don't believe in religion, or a god, and I don't believe in all these man-made institutional ideas," he told Reuters in a 2001 interview.

There are good Christians living in the Good Christian Way, but they're pretty silent. They are not the people that go around screaming that "God Hates [F**S]" and force their religion on others. These peaceful people are actually secure in their own faith and don't need to do this retarded posturing behavior to affirm it.

But sadly, you won't have these people causing much of an uprising to reclaim their churches...Maybe some day.

[Falcom Director of Fanservice]

The troublemakers you describe, Majuunun, are mostly just a vocal minority. But because they are vocal they get attention. I agree there probably aren't as many Christians, or people of any religion, who are secure enough in their faith that they don't need to make a big deal out of it, though. But in between are the folks I described, people who aren't bad people innately, but their eyes are on the wrong goal. They're following out of fear of death, no love of brother or love of deity.

[Incog Neato]

Jun 22, 2008 22:09:03 GMT -5 Red Hairdo said:

I have many theories and I heard of some stuff about this topic. It's something I rather like to talk about as it is something pretty interesting. Human behavior as a whole, actually.

Bring it! XD We can include the study of humanity in this thread as it's not really off-topic (to me)~!!!!!!

Hirm~ I don't think I have much more to say on the linking behaviour to Christianity or any religions. :| I just fear that I'll simply be going in circles if I did. :B

[Red Hairdo]

Jun 23, 2008 15:30:02 GMT -5 Incog Neato said:

Jun 22, 2008 22:09:03 GMT -5 Red Hairdo said:

I have many theories and I heard of some stuff about this topic. It's something I rather like to talk about as it is something pretty interesting. Human behavior as a whole, actually.

Bring it! XD We can include the study of humanity in this thread as it's not really off-topic (to me)~!!!!!!

Hirm~ I don't think I have much more to say on the linking behaviour to Christianity or any religions. I just fear that I'll simply be going in circles if I did. :B

Everything I'll be saying in this post here will be theories rather than facts, for I am no psychologist. xD

Jun 23, 2008 2:35:15 GMT -5 Falcom Director of Fanservice said:

Also, Red is not completely correct. We do not have a need to believe in anything divine. Atheism is, after all, a very valid choice that people make. Some also choose to believe in causes, or intangible ideas, rather than anything personified into a deity. But perhaps I am reading too much into what you said when you meant divine.

You do have a point. I guess I should have just said "belief" instead of "divine belief".
What I'm about to say is rather complex and complicated (and can be wrong/ inaccurate), but...
About true atheists, they don't believe in anything religious. All they believe is what they see and that anything divine doesn't exist. But that is what they believe. They fill in that need to believe on something by believing in what I just said. It is different from animals besides humans who also don't believe in anything, but they also don't disbelief anything, unlike atheists. That kind of think doesn't even cross their minds, unlike us. So, I would say the atheists do believe in something. They believe anything unnatural and divine simply doesn't exist.
My (ex-)portuguese teacher once pointed me out that atheists also have a sort of belief, that even them couldn't escape that "need" or whatever we call it. The explanation for that, though, is something I assumed.

[Incog Neato]

Red Hairdo, I think all you needed to say about true atheists is that they only perceive the corporeal world around them; sort of like "what you see is what you get".

At least, that was my understanding of your explanation. ^^;;;;

Oh lord, here I go off topic now:

If there's one thing that sort of ... bothers me right now are the Christian days that the ENTIRE COUNTRY observes.

I believe, and I could be wrong about this, the only reason they're still mandatory statutory holidays is due to tradition.

I'm not complaining that we get days off from work and school because the government made it so but it seems like the meaning and reason to acknowledge them shouldn't be something for an entire nation anymore. (Granted, Christianity is probably still the dominant religion in North America. ^^)

I mean, we should celebrate holy days from other religions too! :(

[Red Hairdo]

Jun 23, 2008 16:40:43 GMT -5 Incog Neato said:

Red Hairdo, I think all you needed to say about true atheists is that they only perceive the corporeal world around them; sort of like "what you see is what you get".

I guess you're right. Sometimes I'm very redundant. ^^' One of my personal defects I try to work on to fix it as much as possible.


Also I think any government MUST be untied with religions. Or if they're going to tie with religions, they should do so not only with the predominant religion of the country, but, like you suggested, also with as much religions as possible.

Well... to be very honest, I'm against religions that go strongly against ethics. And I wouldn't want festivities of such religions (something big like sacrificing people and other living beings, and other stuff).

[Falcom Director of Fanservice]

Well, there's kinda a trick to that, Red. Atheism is not necessarily about disbelief. Some Atheists, and I repeat some, would suggest there is no reason to believe, because there is no evidence that any sort of divine will exists. So it's isn't negation of belief so much as a lack of one. There's a few different flavors of atheism.

Man, it's weird to defend atheists online. Normally I am attacking them for being close-minded or making strawmen of religious people.

As far as religious holidays being made national go, I don't mind them as long as it's not compulsory to participate in that religion. Then again, I freely admit that I think we're far too workaholic as it is, and every chance we get to slow down and chill should be taken. There is the problem of other religions, of course. But I wouldn't mind seeing Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, and so on holidays being acknowledged.

As far as religions that go against ethics, well... That's a hard thing to say. Ethics can be kinda subjective. Some would argue it's less ethical to let someone' soul fester than to not, say, force them away from their faith.

I suppose the guideline would be respect of other people. I guess that may leave animal sacrifice and the like as a gray area, though.

[Red Hairdo]

Mmm... yeah, well, I can't really disagree with that. Though I'm still inclined to believe these kind of atheists would get the feeling something is missing...
Who knows. If I was an atheist myself, perhaps I could say more.

Also yes, ethics can be kinda subjective... it's complicated...
Like, let's say there's a religion a person must be sacrificed every week. If the person who was chosen to be sacrificed follows such religion and agrees with that procedure, then I guess ethics wouldn't be in harm.

And yes, I agree with that guideline.
As for animals, I personally would just have them killed for one thing: to eat/ survival (buffalo, etc.) and nothing more. Unnecessary killings is something I despise, especially if the reason is not related to beliefs (like killing for fun).
Also being a vegetarian for the purpose of less killing is something I admire. Though, even these eat life (plants, fungus, etc.), though I think it's much less bad. Being alive is bad in that context.
(Argh, I'm going offtopic... xD)

Anyway, when I threw in this topic about "unethical" religions, what really was in my mind was that religion in which if a person i.e. gets sick, this person must heal totally by itself without any medicine or treatment, no matter what illness it is. And if the person dies, the people from that religion would answer the death with "it was God's will". Within that people it could be included the dead person's parents too.
If such person agreed with dieing for this belief then it would be fine... but if the person wanted a treatment and the people who "took care"/ were responsible for the person wouldn't let the person get treated, that is plain murder.
Such religions I look at with hate when such circumstances meet.

[Falcom Director of Fanservice]

Ah, the classic vaccination scandal. Generally, if someone of faith really doesn't want to be treated, well I guess that is fine. It's a goddamned shame (Onoes teh pun!), but it's their life and their choice. It gets a bit more complicated, though, when it applies to vaccination. Because the reason vaccines work is that enough people are immune to the disease that it doesn't happen. If you don't have enough immunized people, it'll just find hold in the non-immunized.

Also, another issue is when they force this on their children. On one hand, they are minors and under their parents' dominion. On the other hand, that can be quite rightly misconstrued as mistreatment from an areligious viewpoint. But then you get into the issue of faith and the unobservable and all kinds of Pandora's boxes with that =[

As for Atheists feeling that something is missing, well, all I have is what atheists have told me. They seem to take fulfillment in gaining an understanding of how the universe works. As for why, there is no why. It exists because it exists. But, again, that's just anecdotal knowledge, and in not necessarily representative of reality.

[Red Hairdo]

[...]It's a goddamned shame (Onoes teh pun!)[...]

xD

Also I'm in agreement with all you just stated.

I guess I'll leave the atheists alone for now. xD