National identity and suchlike.

[Nalacakes]

I was speaking with an old friend last night, and we somehow fell on the topic of nationality. We're both Scotland-born, and by extension British. But she said she was absolutely unable to identify as British, and had to always be 'Scottish'. She felt that to do otherwise would be to disregard a fairly large part of who she was. I, on the other hand, would feel entirely odd specifying to anyone that I was 'Scottish' when, by my reckoning, England and Scotland are like Ys: Felghana and Ys: Napishtim: different countries running on the same engine, and sporting primarily the same set of gameplay mechanics. ^_~ Okay, so that's the dorkiest simile ever. But you get the point. ^^; Stepping off the train to London to me just feels like stepping into Glasgow++. It's bigger and louder, but I've never had to stop and realise that I'm in an entirely different country. It just feels like more of the same, really~

Anyway, it was kind of interesting to me to see such a contrast in views toward something as fundamental and basic as the area you happened to be born in. And the realisation that I don't really think much about my actual country of birth except when asked to fill it out on forms sort of got me thinking a little about national identity, and the feelings that we harbour toward our own native cultures. So I thought I'd start this thread~

Where were you born, and how do you feel about your homeland? Is your nationality just a word to you, or does it represent something much deeper? Outside of the country you happened to be born in, maybe your national background also plays a factor? Perhaps one or both of your parents were born in a different country, and you've picked up some of the values of another culture along with your own? Or perhaps you moved to a new country at some point in your life, and had to adjust?

Are there any especially jarring or unusual regional differences between the part of your country where you were born, and that of others? Maybe you spent a large part of your childhood, like me, amidst small-town folk, and had to adjust upon coming to a bigger city that formed more of a cultural center? Does this affect your sense of identity on a larger scale? Maybe you feel as if you belong to one part of your country, but not really others?

On a somewhat more general scale, what things do you especially like or dislike about your home country? Are there any cultural points that you feel are unique or otherwise a bit quirky, whether it happens to be for good or for bad?

Yes, things like that, I suppose? ^^; I don't know. I'm not so good at starting topics~

[MonoTekETeA]

It is true, since the US is so large, I kind of respond to cities better then anything else. An example would be that I live in NJ, only 2 hours from NYC, but I wouldn't feel right with some one saying that I live near or am any way a part of NYC.

Since we are pretty much generic, looks govern all society, I just pick up on my parents personalities and traits.

I would fight for my nation, if it came down for it, but I would be fighting for my family and friends, and only hope that people could continue running something that would be a worth while society to live in.

I really like living in the suburbs, everything is lively and convenient, but not on a city scale; however, the city does offer lots of cool things to do, and secret areas to find. I do like the small-town stuff though, where people will invite you over for a meal, even if you are a total stranger. I'd just be worried about getting too caught up in small town fiascos though. Like "Miss Benny just planted a huge garden, who does she think she is, making us look bad, not telling us how to make our flowers grow like that."

::Shrugs:: I'd be fine living anywhere, I enjoy company for the most part, and people seem to mold with me, or I mold with them, either way, I seem to get along just dandy with plenty of people. As long as I have people to hang around, I won't go batty. Don't get me wrong though, I love my alone time just as much as the next person, you do need to get away every so often.

Things I dislike, would be the lack of faith one can have for their government. When I sit down and think if I could really put support behind my government to do the right thing, or even if they did the wrong thing, that I would understand their judgment. (Fragment I know) I just can't always do that, with even 70% certainty, that is what annoys me.

Another quirk would be our obsession over self image, physically. I understand about being clean and well kept, but getting plastic inserted into your face is absurd. My sister's friend that came from England was blown away at after only a few months living here, how much she cared about her self image, and how much money she wasted on such things as make up and new clothes/accessories.

Sorry if I veered off topic a tad, but that was the best I could answer,. No, I don't really feel like the Suburbs are the only place for me. Any where, where people are willing to accept me, is where I would feel I belonged. All other things, taking public transportation, walking 4 miles to the grocery store, all are things I've done in my lifetime, or something I wouldn't mind doing, so there aren't really any restrictions.

My 45 mins of mixed up ideas and what not that came to mind as I typed.
-Jeremy

[Yakra]

I can kind of actually relate to your point of view Elin. Having been born in the capital city, which doesn't really fall in any of the four provinces, I never really thought 'what' I was. To make things worse, I never had a 'village' that all my friends used to go to. I was born in Islamabad and have always lived there. So when people ask me now whether I'm a Punjabi or Sindhi or Kashmiri or something I'm sitting there quite clueless. (To make things worse, usually the area where one's father heralds from is considered the kid's area/province too, but er... apparently my dad was airheaded as me and never thought about it. X'D We're just 'pakistani'! )

However, ever since I've grown older I don't think anyone thinks me a pakistani either! I'm a foreigner in my own country!

So anyways, what are my views towards my national identity? I don't really care eitherway. I guess... it truly is just a word. The country is just... there. Unlike monoteketea I would never ever fight for my country. Who am I to say that anyone is wrong and evil and must die? I wouldn't even do that for my family and friends. I'd just pack them up and take them to a safer country/region! XD

As for there being differences between where I was born and other cities - though Islamabad is the capital, its pretty new in comparison to places like Lahore and Karachi (which are ancient! and huge!). So in comparison, its always been smaller, quieter, and been often declared to be a city for senior citizens and government servants (who be no party animals! X'D). It's developed greatly in the last few years but thats besides the point. Basically, after spending four years in Lahore I realized I don't think I can stay in big, smoky, bustling cities. I like nice small towns with hills and trees. Meh... I wouldn't even mind the Himalayas in comparison to the coastal areas!

Anyways, I guess do like a lot of stuff about here. Mainly the art-sy side though - the old buildings, the ancient ruins, music and paintings and stories and stuff. There's a lot I don't like though. The stupid government in particular. And lots of silly selfish people (that's kind of vague, since there are silly and selfish people in every country, but gah!) Oh yes, and on a lighter note, I hate how original games and mangas are non existent here. Non-pirated something please?

[MonoTekETeA]

Sept 1, 2008 15:00:51 GMT -5 Yakra said:

Unlike monoteketea I would never ever fight for my country. Who am I to say that anyone is wrong and evil and must die? I wouldn't even do that for my family and friends. I'd just pack them up and take them to a safer country/region! XD

::Grins:: Lol, sorry if this changes my image to the negative for you. Just what I believe in, and a bit of typical "Gun-ho American" outlook. I am "standard" and "prepackaged" in quite a few ways mentally, when thinking of it like that.

I like to think that I choose my fights wisely, if that helps my image with anyone. Just yes, when it came down to either just fighting or running...and fighting would be doing more "good", you would find me fighting.

Granted, this is in a defensive standpoint, I am not in Iraq or anything, but should America ever be invaded, I would be fighting. Plus, what country would accept an American in their borders should it look like we were losing power...yeah I can't think of anyone either.

All in all, it can easily come down to the fact fighting is fighting. If that is your mindset, I apologize. If you so could, please set this part of me aside, so we can just enjoy other discussions in the message board, not pertaining to some thing as immature/uncivilized(in the ideal civilization) as fighting.

But please, don't let my reply knock this off topic...I just wanted to defend my point of view a little bit. Thank you.

-Jeremy

[Justin]

My mom is Welsh and Scotish, and my Dad is a pure Hungarian.... I am a second generation Canadian which is rare these days. I don't know where I fall into the mix, although I am very proud of my Europeian heritage. I love the history of both sides of the family, esspecially during war times, and I am happy to be Canadian.

[Kimimi]

This is a really interesting topic, especially as you're a Scottish-Brit Elin and happy with it in these times!

I'm British too, but born and raised in the English bit of our country. Even if we're only thinking about it in a practical sense, I think our nation is physically just too small to support several individual nations. I've been to a lot of places all over the country, and whenever I've ventured into Scotland or Wales I've never felt like a foreigner, or that I'm in a different country.

I'm proud to be British, and I'm proud of the immense cultural mix we have here - I really wouldn't have it any other way. I do think it is hard to define "Britishness" though, because the instant someone starts waving a union flag it's seen as an exclusive, BNP style gesture by these anonymous PC types.

I was going to say where I felt I most indentified with, but really there are far too many wonderful and beautiful places all over the country; I have no wish to limit myself to just one area!

[Yakra]

Sept 1, 2008 20:45:30 GMT -5 MonoTekETeA said:

::Grins:: Lol, sorry if this changes my image to the negative for you. Just what I believe in, and a bit of typical "Gun-ho American" outlook. I am "standard" and "prepackaged" in quite a few ways mentally, when thinking of it like that.

I like to think that I choose my fights wisely, if that helps my image with anyone. Just yes, when it came down to either just fighting or running...and fighting would be doing more "good", you would find me fighting.

Oh no no! I didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out or thought bad of your views! You just made me think of what I would do (and er... how un-patriotic I am ). I guess its just overall I don't like fighting at all. I find wars useless and manipulative. And too evil. (Because the person I'd be firing at would actually be just like me - here thinking he/she is doing this for great justice and their family. [Lots of poor american soldiers here wore that silly expression ])

So anyways, I didn't think any less of you for being like that at all! I'm the one who's more concerned about her own skin!

[Falcom Director of Fanservice]

I'm...myself, I suppose.

I am an United Statesian, but do I feel any special attatchment to the concept of the United States?

Well...sorta. I mean, it's home. It's a part of my concept of home. Were Neohio to be suddenly absorbed into Canada, aside from reveling in the Universal Healthcare, I'd probably still think of it as part of the Estados Unitos. It's my home. But, that's it. I don't feel loyal to it, not in the same way that I feel loyal, say, to this forum or most of the people here. I get angry and upset with it; with its government actions, its citizens, its intrinsic legal acts of retardation. I'll happy curse and bitch and moan about when I think it has it coming. But it's still mine, and I'll defend its ideals and good bits as fairly as I can without being deceptive, just as soon as I'll curse what's wrong with it.

My state is much the same way. Neohio is home. It's got problems, it's fucked up in a number of ways. A lot of the people make me tear my hair out with their shortsightedness. But it's still home. And I don't want to leave it. I grew up here, and my soul is intertwined with this place. Even moreso my county, I've lived here my whole life. My memories are deeply entwined with it. My roots are here. I don't think I could ever leave it permanently and be happy.

Some say they would fight to defend their homes from threats. I really can't do that. But, I think I would fight to save it from itself. I'm not much of a fighter, mind, but I do what I can to help people to separate fact from deception and misinterpretation. That is, to me, much more...intrinsically good than acting out love of homeland by joining a fighting force.

[MonoTekETeA]

Me about ready to take Salt Lake over by storm, some one toss me a Polygamy Porter.



But word up to Colorado a state, along with Maine, that I would really like to visit. Texas also, but that is mainly for their food, lol.

[Musa-Revived]

Interesting topic really. I've been pondering on whether to give my views in this thread. I mean, most of the replies so far are from people in the Western part of the world so I'd figured you might be interested in the words from someone over the other side of the globe. The only thing that's stopping me from going all out is that I've this weird habit to maintain national anonymity on the web. Yeah it's silly but I'd really like to keep a sense of enigma to my origins.

Yet here I am wrecking my brains on how to post without giving away too many hints so I'd hope you'll not read too much into them and try to guess my country. Just take my views as from one of 'em Asians.

I'm a full blooded Chinese in case you didn't know by now. But that's only in ethnicity as I'm born in one of the many "multiracial" countries in Asia. I've lived my life among people of other radically different cultures like muslims, indians etc. Yet despite our various differences in culture, color and religion, I'm not afraid to deny my nationality and I've come to accept other kinds of people as my fellow citizens. I suppose it's a little different from the Americans, I mean to me, regardless of how many kinds of bloodlines you have in you, you're all white and black people. I mean no offense really, it's just ignorance on my part and I have no idea how to tell you white people and black people apart. I'm sure the opposite could be said of you, as we are just brown or yellow to you.

I suppose it could be the differences in social and religious values between the East and West. You're predominantly English speaking Christians. I come from a region with many religions that are equally important to their respective cultures. Me, I'm Buddhist since I'm traditionally Chinese. Yet I've got many Muslim, Hindi, Christian friends living around me. See, that's the thing about Asian countries, we've got too many different peoples, cultures, religions amongst ourselves, so there's a hidden need to identify with something greater and that's where Nationality comes in. Sure you're brown, you may likely be a Malay or an Indian, but wait, are you from India, Malaysia or some other country in Asia?

Take me for another example. In my country, I'm most likely seen as a local. But when I'm out of my country, people will look at me and ask "Hey, you Chinese? From China? You speak only Chinese?" And I'd reply "Hell no, I'm from Country X and I f*cking speak English and I'm gonna swear at you in Chinese."

It gets a little worse when it comes to the more homogeneous Asian countries like Japan and China. When I was in Japan, I was afraid they would mistake me for a Chinese from China. I mean, come on, I look Chinese and I speak Chinese. And if the guy's a nationalistic Japanese who abhors China Chinese, then I have to voice out my difference in Nationality. "No you Japanese perv, I'm not a freaking Chinese from China, I'm from Country X. And I freaking speak English so leave me alone. And you suck for being ignorant of the WWII atrocities your ancestors did."

And you know how we view white people? Most of us don't really care if you're American, Canadian, European. Fact is if I see you on my streets, I'd go "Hey, it's a white dude. Wonder where he came from. Must be a tourist." Yes, we do know that there are many caucasians living amongst us but we got no "America/Europe Town" so the possibility of you being a local is there but we probably won't think of it first.

So I guess that's my perspective of being an Asian. Do note that there's a slight nuance of xenophobia in what I say. Fact is, no matter how "multiracial" you are, there's always that slight hidden bias against others who are not of your skin color.

Disclaimer: The above views are only my own and are in no way representative of Asian people.

[Falcom Director of Fanservice]

On the nature of people of other ethnicities looking the same, I've read it's because we identify people in different manners.

Let me ask you, Musa, when you look for a person in a crowd, what do you look for? Is it hair and hairstyle? Shape of the face? Eye color? The prominence of one's nose?

From what I've read, most Asians tend to look more toward things like how deeply sunken one's eyes are, what the bridge of their nose looks like, and so on, because that is where the differences in the appearance manifest themselves most prominently in Asians. For Americans, who have a lot of mixing of racial types, we look at hair, eye color, and the way one's facial features are arranged.

Of course, there are factors both use, like height, build, and (I think) shape of the face.

But in short, my understanding is we learn to use recognition systems based on what stands out most, which varies from people to people.

Edit: Also, Musa, I didn't get the feeling you're xenophobic. I got the feeling you come from somewhere where it is easy to be mistaken for something you are not, and to be judged poorly because of it. I'd be bothered if someone insisted I must be a Catholic because I look like I'm Irish (do have a fair amount of Ireland in my background, though).

[Musa-Revived]

Lol, I thought that my hypothetical responses to the Chinese and Japanese on the street would show my "xenophobic" streak. I'm half joking though.

And yes, I too read that article about how Asians and Caucasians identify physical features and facial emotions on others. You have to admit that statistically it's true to a certain extent. Not too mention the age-old stereotypes of slit eyes and long faces for Orientals and huge noses and strong jaws for Westerners.

Actually racial segregation isn't that much of a problem where I come from. It's the homogeneous Asian countries that are a little more picky when they judge outsiders.

[Yakra]

Sept 3, 2008 0:04:42 GMT -5 Musa-Revived said:

Yet here I am wrecking my brains on how to post without giving away too many hints so I'd hope you'll not read too much into them and try to guess my country. Just take my views as from one of 'em Asians.

I just had to try and guess after this..! X'D You were born in... er... Singapore? *ultimate wild guess!* I can kind of relate to that though somehow. I like my anonymity on the internet, how I can hide from the 'real' people and stuff. (And get very irritated when people do discover me!) I somehow always do end up declaring which country I'm from though... (a bad move!)

I'm a non-Christian Asian on this board by the way! (As if it wasn't apparent from my last post XD)

I've never really had problems telling people's nationalities apart though. Or atleast continents. I'm bad with geography! Usually its the features and their way of carrying themselves, but most of all their accents (and if all else fails - car number plates! XD). Americans (or United Statesians as you guys call yourselves! Sorry! People from the U.S have always been Americans for me and shall probably forever remain so! *ingrained school lesson-trainings-common talk*) are the easiest to spot from a mile away actually. They're usually the friendliest and the most informal people I've ever come across (even in the most formal-est of functions!).

Ofcourse I'm never really ever sure though. The poor person who I might be declaring to be Russian might just be someone like me!

Musa's post is actually incredibly interesting though. It kind of does reflect how some of my friends thought/think (especially that is 'all foreign looking people are tourists').

[Musa-Revived]

Lol, you can keep on guessing, after all there are many countries here. I'll always be from Planet Falcom. Yup nice to meet you too, fellow Asian Yakra

[MonoTekETeA]

Lol, I always though of my self as an American...even though it isn't correct if I am just thinking about my nationality to the US. ::Shrugs::

As for recognizing people, I live in a predominately white and black neighborhood, and don't get a chance to see many asians. I do try and tell the difference though, and eventually learn the difference over time, through random bits of information.

Lol, the problem with the US, is I never see anyone as a tourist. Most of the times, it is thought that they are a new resident or something of the sort. Like say I go to Philly (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania) and I go to it's art museum, which has a pretty good pull due to the "Rocky Stairs." When I see asians there, speaking their native language, acting like tourists, I just normally figure they are from the west coast or some where non local, and just visiting relatives/friends that are local. Unless some one came rolling by me speaking German with others, would I really think that they are tourists.

So granted, I never have a look down feeling of seeing some one and saying "tourist." However, I never really got the chance to know a popular spot that well, like a city, and then notice others who look like they don't belong, but even then, most of the time they would probably be a resident, and not a "tourist" from another country.

[Musa-Revived]

Hmm, well America is a very huge country and has a very long and rich history. Compared to most Asian countries.

Again, it's my ignorance speaking but I've watched this movie called Harold and Kumar go to White Castle (awesome movie btw, its sequel is awesome too).

So I have this preconception that most Asians living in America now are already 2nd to 3rd generation Asian Americans. These American born Asians are totally immersed in the current American culture and they speak and think like Americans. Just like Harold and Kumar. And I've seen a few of these in real life too.

Now, the thing is these American born Asians are nothing like the English speaking Asians born and living in Asia (ie. yours truly). Regardless of how I write my posts here in this forum, if you were to speak with me in real life, I will definitely sound different from what you'd expect (maybe). I'd sound a lot more like Harold's father and maybe with a thicker Asian accent. I can try to fake my speech with an American accent but it's more likely a miss than a hit...
Anyway it depends on upbringing and education. I got this Thai friend who was taught in an American based school from young, so he actually speaks like Kumar and fluent Thai as well. But there's another Thai friend who was taught locally from young and he speaks English with a thick Thai accent. The thing is, my American speaking Thai friend is in the minority, while my locally taught Thai friend is in the majority. So you can imagine what most of the other Asian people sound like in English.

I guess speech and attitude plays a part in recognizing foreigners in Asia since most of us don't speak American/British etc.

[Falcom Director of Fanservice]

Curiously enough, most people I know would be likely to think most Asians (and Latinos) they see in the US are immigrants. As Musa said, America is traditionally a nation of white and black people.

Mind you, I live in the flyover area. So the people I know didn't come from places that have had thriving immigrant communities that have become thriving non-white/black communities. So seeing Asians and Latinos isn't a common thing. Which naturally leads one from around here to think of such peoples as foreign.

Also, to my understanding, most Asian nations have a history longer than the US' history. Unless you count Native American history as well, which is rather poorly understood and really not contiguous with the United States. (Mind you, my own understanding of Asian history; especially Southeast Asian history, is extremely poor.)

[Justin]

After watching the Olympics, I really find it hard to describe most countries by what color the people are. It really makes you think about globalization.

[Incog Neato]

Is it strange to say that one is racist against one's own people? ^^ Or, I guess, it's probably more like ignorant, closed-minded and lots of generalization.

I'm Chinese, born in Canada but I have a dislike Chinese people from Hong Kong. I find that they're generally loud, dirty/unclean, rude, and cheap. I'll leave it as this since I've probably offended enough people as it is just stating my dislike. :P

In terms of being Canadian ... I'm sure that most people that hold a Canadian citizenship or have a Canadian birth certificate will say they're proud Canadians but underneath all that, they're probably part of some other culture as well. D:

As for me, I could really care less about what it means to be Canadian and honestly don't know what really qualifies as being Canadian. All I know are the stereotypes like hockey, beavers, igloos, and the Victoria "May 2-4" long weekend but really, this country is multicultural and very diverse (except maybe Quebec cuz they want their own country anyway), especially in the major metropolis areas.

I'm me and you're you. We all come from some country. Isn't that enough? :B

[Musa-Revived]

Ooh.. I didn't know you're Chinese too. Well, I guess it's fair for you to dislike Hong Kong Chinese. In fact, I kinda dislike Chinese from mainland China for exactly the same reasons as yours. Heh.