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Post by Red Hairdo on Mar 15, 2009 15:11:29 GMT -5
It's not like we aren't peddling in facts either though.
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rocket
Lyus
well its time to pack it in again. Where do you want to go today?
Posts: 145
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Post by rocket on Mar 15, 2009 15:17:42 GMT -5
seems to me both arguments validately exist in socity. They are both ligit. I see no losers i only see 2 winners that are both right.
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Post by Yakra on Mar 15, 2009 15:22:12 GMT -5
This is probably again totally off topic from the discussion but... I'm curious soooo... Plus, languages that adhere to the tenets you put forth...die. I recommend reading about the death of French, it's on a death spiral because the French thought what you thought. Another language that happened to? Latin. French died once? When? How?  I mean, its quite a thriving and widely used language still? But anyways, I was thinking after reading this line of Red Hairdo's - s0 tis meanz daT sin-sy u gheto whato i meano, ima usin' propa English th4ts whut u sad ...I think one could actually use that in a proper English exam and get away with it? :'D Not as the actual body of the text (that is... if one is writing an essay, I'm sure if I wrote the whole thing in that language, I'd fail for sure!), but if I wrote that as a part of some dialogue, it would pass? (Random example - sort of like the way in some books the dialogue is actually attempted to be written down in the way it is spoken, with all the full accents?) And if that is so, neither darusgrey, nor wyrdwad are wrong, ne? About Japanese schools simply marking 'colour' as wrong.... meh, that wrong! X( I think I mentioned it before somewhere in some other topic too, but basically the English that is considered 'correct' or 'proper' over here is the British English. But despite that, if I had spelt colour as 'color' during my A Levels, neither my college nor the Oxford University would really have brought about the hammer of doom upon my head. A hammer of doom for the wrong use of 'its', yes there would be! But not for this. Both the American (ahem... sorry  ) and the British English are considered correct in their own way. (Ofcourse, if I mixed both of them up, I would probably would have gotten told off, as I usually did. X'D) |
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Mar 15, 2009 15:24:26 GMT -5
darusgrey: How would you describe your abilities in linguistics on a job application? wyrdwad: How would you describe your abilities in English on a job application? I'm just curious, because I feel that I could hire someone who is linguistically skilled, as well as someone who is grammatically skilled. The job in question? Writing the dialogue for characters in a computer game. In my express opinion, one who is linguistically skilled can offer more human-sounding characters, while someone grammatically skilled can correct "mistakes". I could be wrong, and here I offer you this chance to prove to me that you are undoubtedly the person for the job. You notice on the application, there is an example bit of dialogue. "Welcome to the armory. What would you like?" The application requests that you rewrite it in your own words, in a way that would sound audibly pleasing and look visually pleasing. How would you rewrite this dialogue? This is all purely out of curiousity, just for fun -- I cannot actually hire either of you.  // This little "contest" is unbiased, as I would personally give serious thought to hiring one or even both of you, given the characteristics of both parties, which in my express opinion, would be beneficial. |
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Post by Skeletore has a boner on Mar 15, 2009 15:24:49 GMT -5
It's not like we aren't peddling in facts either though. Just a moment ago you called prescription an ideal(which it is). An ideal as a concept(not to be confused with it's definition) is something that does not exist! It's the desire for a state of perfection of the idea. There can be no reality within an ideal, they're contradictory, since an ideal is no longer an ideal when it exists. |
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rocket
Lyus
well its time to pack it in again. Where do you want to go today?
Posts: 145
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Post by rocket on Mar 15, 2009 15:38:23 GMT -5
darusgrey,
you are in linguistics? I am impressed you are grounded in practical application instead of theory.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Mar 15, 2009 15:54:19 GMT -5
It's not like we aren't peddling in facts either though. Just a moment ago you called prescription an ideal(which it is). An ideal as a concept(not to be confused with it's definition) is something that does not exist! It's the desire for a state of perfection of the idea. There can be no reality within an ideal, they're contradictory, since an ideal is no longer an ideal when it exists. In that post you quoted, I didn't say I wasn't talking about ideals too. I only said that we also were peddling with facts. Like the fact that you can compromise one's future negatively depending on what and how you teach. |
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Post by AllenSmithee on Mar 15, 2009 15:57:37 GMT -5
""Welcome to the armory. What would you like?""
"'EY BILLY SWAPPER MY NAME IS JACK? WANNA LICK MY GIZMO!"
Is that good?
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Mar 15, 2009 16:09:33 GMT -5
It's located in a post-apocalyptic German castle town, everyone's returned to middle-age arms which the guy sells. He's a skinny pale young (no facial hair) short brown haired blacksmith with light muscle tone -- he's only been working there for a few months.
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Post by AllenSmithee on Mar 15, 2009 16:11:23 GMT -5
"Uhm, hey, welcome to my armor shop! Anything catch your eye?"
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Post by AllenSmithee on Mar 15, 2009 16:12:30 GMT -5
What am I even doing? I'm not part of this!
BUT ITS SO FUN!
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Post by Red Hairdo on Mar 15, 2009 16:13:24 GMT -5
Offtopic to the current offtopic discussion note:
I think I must say, darusgrey, that even though there's a heavy "disturbance" in our discussion, it doesn't mean I take it personally or anything.
I find it to be very cool that you have a degree in linguistics and that you know such curious things. I can see the side you are defending, too.
To be honest, I aspire to become an actual linguist eventually. I really love learning languages and to study everything related to them.
So I have a lot of respect for you (and Wyrdwad) on that matter, so please, I wish that you don't take anything said here personally. I mean it.
And in case you are wondering, like I said, I'm also not taking anything here personally, so there's no need to worry either.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Mar 15, 2009 16:16:50 GMT -5
I like what you did, Smithee. Overall, it gives me a sense that the shopkeeper is slightly inexperienced and shy. Very good! If you were old enough, I'd certainly hire you.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Mar 15, 2009 17:17:57 GMT -5
Well done, lots of personality, elements of surprise and a welcoming attitude. I like it!  Infact, I'd like to use that when the time comes, haha! |
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Post by Falcom Director of Fanservice on Mar 15, 2009 21:13:33 GMT -5
In my country, man who split infinitive is thrown to dog.
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Post by Skeletore has a boner on Mar 15, 2009 21:14:40 GMT -5
darusgrey: I will only comment on one question you asked. You asked, who gave me the authority to dictate what is and isn't proper English? And my answer is, Ursinus College. I have a degree in this stuff. A degree IS some manner of authority, like it or not. As for your contest, Unsavory, I'd have to know a bit more about the armory in question before I could adequately rewrite that sentence. Where is it located? Who runs it? And is it more of a smithy, or more of a shop? Also, darus again: Please respond to this, taking into account what I said about the JET Programme, high school entrance exams, etc. While I disagree with the usage of American English and strict grammatical standards throughout Japan, that doesn't make it any less true, and simply to ignore the standard used and teach your own interpretation of the language could have very dire consequences on your students. -Tom I seriously have to wonder if you're just baiting me at this point...cause you should well know my answer to both questions since they're both the same fallacies that keep getting repeated(fallacy #5, authority through repetition, very popular in politics!). Since I don't like insulting people, it's impossible to further the discussion, since it's clear we've reached an impasse. |
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rocket
Lyus
well its time to pack it in again. Where do you want to go today?
Posts: 145
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Post by rocket on Mar 15, 2009 23:40:16 GMT -5
hay wyrd'y
How often do you go on vacation? Also when was your last vacation?
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Post by Red Hairdo on Mar 16, 2009 8:23:47 GMT -5
It's is a perfectly acceptable possessive of a gender neutral term. This is an evolution of English over the last 50 years. English originally lacked any gender neutral terms, and we've been slowly adapting a category of possessives to gender neutrality as we increasing personify objects in our daily speech. This is a trend towards eventually being a fully analytical language that lacks gender determiners. Hm, just curious, but when you wrote that paragraph, you were talking about it in a prescriptive grammar context, right? If so, there's something I would like to comment about (and ask?). (Of course, if it was in a descriptive grammar context, then I'd have nothing to comment/ask since it's "anarchical", so that's why I'm asking before doing it.) (Also, I'm not sure if you'll be replying here again, but if you do... then please, confirm my question. xD) |
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Post by Skeletore has a boner on Mar 16, 2009 11:28:18 GMT -5
I generally make all grammar comments in the vein of being a descriptivist.
If you want my *opinion*(which is all ANY prescription is, prescriptionist linguists are considered to be quacks) I think it's acceptable in a prescriptive manner as well, the use of it's as a possessive is far beyond critical mass in common use these days.
Not only that, but it's as a possessive is actually transitioning the term to be more in line with the natural morphology of English. Because right now it's one of the more bizarre exceptions.
Following standard morphological conventions you would be led to assume:
its = plural (which would be bizarre in and of itself), this should eventually drop off, and will likely be considered "inproper" English in the future.
it's = possessive.
It's not like it's even confusing...it's clear from context which one is intended, because if you choose the other you'll experience semantic rejection. There's many other languages where you have contractions, plurals, and possessives overlapping to where a singe word/phrase features the same spelling but has several different meanings.
Bah...1% battery.
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Post by Red Hairdo on Mar 16, 2009 11:49:50 GMT -5
I generally make all grammar comments in the vein of being a descriptivist. If you want my *opinion*(which is all ANY prescription is, prescriptionist linguists are considered to be quacks) I think it's acceptable in a prescriptive manner as well, the use of it's as a possessive is far beyond critical mass in common use these days. Not only that, but it's as a possessive is actually transitioning the term to be more in line with the natural morphology of English. Because right now it's one of the more bizarre exceptions. I see. Well then, in my opinion, if "it's" is used as a possessive, I believe other changes should also be made by consequence, because everything is relative. A language (well, prescriptively at least) is structured in a logical way; any language. If "it's" is changed to a possessive, from my point of view, you would also have to change "her" to "her's" (or even "she's"?) and "his" to "he's" (I think it couldn't be "hi's" because it would end up being pronounced as "Hi-S" right?). If such changes weren't made as well, the line of logic would be violated. "His" and "her" are respectively the masculine and feminine counterparts of "its". |
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I mean, its quite a thriving and widely used language still?
) and the British English are considered correct in their own way. (Ofcourse, if I mixed both of them up, I would probably would have gotten told off, as I usually did. X'D)
Infact, I'd like to use that when the time comes, haha!
