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Post by Mutagene on Mar 26, 2011 3:06:05 GMT -5
Ignoring my 2 months of attending a Catholic school in 3rd grade, I haven't been to church since I was 4 years old. I've flip-flopped from being a radical atheist to agnostic, but I think as of now I'm essentially deist. I can't stand organized religion, even if it does bring some good things (I'd imagine the poor would be greater in number if not for the efforts of the church). However, I don't think that evolution explains how the first particles in the beginning of space were formed. I think that there is a grand architect, but I leave it as a mystery that will never be fully solved.
Also, nearly all of the arrogant people I've met in real life are devout Christians who only care about themselves and treat anyone else like trash.
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Post by Raison D'etritus on Mar 26, 2011 9:30:10 GMT -5
Awesome points awarded to Schlag and Muta
*runs out of awesome points*
*dies*
Nope, some of us are agnostic too!
I actually discussed much the same thing with somebody else on here recently, and I'm quite in line with Muta here. While I can't rule out the possibility of everything being one big cosmic coincidence and accident, I find it improbable next to the potential existence of some greater will.
*Godsmack starts playing U-DO*
But the thought of everything being reliant on an anthropomorphic bearded grandfather figure who wants everyone who subscribes to the right club to be happy (but wills eternal suffering on the rest) doesn't sit well with me, logically or morallly.
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Post by tancients on Mar 26, 2011 19:43:31 GMT -5
I did a lot of theology study when I was younger, the easiest way to explain things is to imagine a scenario where everyone is blind. One person touches the object, and feels something long and leathery with a hollow center, and considers it a well of possibilities. Another feels a thin leathery and wavy part in the shape of a half circle, and considers that it is to signify that someone is always there to listen. Another feels something thin and narrow, with a bushy, bristly tip, and thinks it to mean that while it may be a rough road, it'll lead to something better. The list goes on, but each one signifies a particular religion and their ideologies and conceptual process for how they're treating things. Each a part of the picture but none necessarily the end-all definitive answer. Though if people are curious about an odd theological and idealistic view of the state of things, go look up Zeitgeist the movie. It's free to watch. (I'm sure at least a few of the posters here have already seen it given their penchant for information)  |
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Post by Este on Mar 26, 2011 20:08:07 GMT -5
WOW. I saw the title and squintingly clicked on the link. To my surprise this didn't spiral out of control into a shit-flinging contest. Well done ALoY!!!
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Post by ParanoiaDragon on Mar 26, 2011 21:10:14 GMT -5
This is an interesting thread. I haven't red the bible, but I do have an interest in it but never got around to actually reading it. But from what I know and heard, If you don't believe in God and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, you will be a lost soul. I am Native American, and I have only recently started taking an interest in our own cultures teachings and practices. I don't see any conflict between the Native American teachings/practices and the Christen religion. Since our elders in our community hold the most knowledge of our way of life, I've been taking the time to learn about how my people use to live in the past. I know us new-age generation have been assimilated into modern society so once our elders pass away, our old teachings will probably be on the verge of extinction. But, what I don't like about some Christians is how they forcefully try to make you believe in the bible, God, Jesus ect. I have had this happen to me and it put me in a very awkward situation. I do believe in God (the Natives call him the Creator) and I do believe in Heaven (the Natives call it the Spiritual World). I have participated is some of our ceremonies and was even given my own traditional Indian name, which is cool  If you're interested in the Bible, there's a pretty good basic book that's easy to understand(even for people like me who have a hard time concentrating). You might find it intersting. At the very least, it'll give you an overview of the Bible, & if you have a Bible, you can look up the scriptures cited, the first link is the book in an audio format: www.jw.org/index.html?option=QrYQZRQVNlBBXOr you can download a PDF of the book here, just scroll down to What Does the Bible Really Teach, & click on the PDF link: www.jw.org/index.html?option=QrYQCsVrGlBBXI enjoyed it, & it made alot of sense to me personally, & it's a pretty easy read, as I've stated earlier, I'm not a voracious reader by any means.....I have a really hard time concentrating on books unfortunately. If you do decide to take a look at it, you can start from the begining if you like, or if there's a certain topic listed that interests you most, you can just start there. |
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Post by Incog Neato on Mar 27, 2011 12:49:45 GMT -5
WOW. I saw the title and squintingly clicked on the link. To my surprise this didn't spiral out of control into a shit-flinging contest. Well done ALoY!!! This is how it's supposed to be -- just open-minded, civilized discussions~! :D |
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Post by ParanoiaDragon on Mar 27, 2011 18:52:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I've seen some religious threads at over forums get QUITE out of control  |
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Post by tancients on Apr 2, 2011 14:15:10 GMT -5
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." - Marcus Aurelius
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Post by Kimimi on Apr 3, 2011 1:31:51 GMT -5
That's a really nice quote, it reminded me a lot of this one from Terry Pratchett -
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Post by Raison D'etritus on Apr 3, 2011 2:59:54 GMT -5
*high five for Marcus Aurelius quote*
(it's what all the cool kids are reading)
I actually started my philosophical journey with Aurelius
*high five for stoicism*
and I think reading him at such an early age may have helped to influence me toward zen buddhism, and aided my mind in picking up all the underlying zennish (stoic) principles in other theologies.
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Post by Incog Neato on Apr 3, 2011 6:55:03 GMT -5
Both quotes are equally awesome~!! *o*
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Post by AllenSmithee on Apr 3, 2011 8:59:47 GMT -5
What's nice is that Hinduism has ties to that idea -- just being a good person for the purpose of being nice (and not for the underhanded purpose of "Oh, I'm being nice here, so I'll be reincarnated better") is one of the four purusarthas, the idea of dharma, doing what is right regardless of how it affects achieving moksha and escaping samsara -- but it will affect that positively. Plus, Hinduism emphasizes intent over action, which is cool.
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Post by schlagwerk on Apr 4, 2011 13:18:04 GMT -5
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." - Marcus Aurelius Oh wow... okay so up until the no gods part, that has exactly been my exact philosophy since I realized I was agnostic over a decade ago. |
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Post by ParanoiaDragon on Apr 5, 2011 0:33:18 GMT -5
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." - Marcus Aurelius I personally believe that, if we were created by God, god's, goddesses, etc., the, whatever created us, & the laws of the universe would know what is beneficial for us. Not just physically beneficial ofcoarse, but also emotionally. So, I believe that worshipping whatever created us is beneficial to us, as long as that worship is not in a demeaning way, but by honoring laws, principles, etc. & being grateful for what we are given. We(especially me) don't always realise what is beneficial for us. Sometimes later in life as we gain experience, we appreciate life more, & what's been given us, even in a world that can be full of sadness(why there is sadness is a totally different subject though). I honestly believe that everyone has something they worship, even atheists. The Bible speaks of all sorts of god's. There are the god's of wood & stone ofcoarse, but, also I believe that people can worship money, sex, or their own belly(so to speak). I don't think there is anyone who wouldn't agree that it's possible to even worship oneself. Not that I can say for sure, as I believe only the Creator or creators can read hearts, but, I do believe that people that think too much of themselves, can actually in a sense be worshipping themselves. Not trying to stomp on anyone's beliefs, so, I aplogize in advance if I have done so. I just wanted to express my own thoughts on how I view worship, & whether it's important or not. |
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Post by AllenSmithee on Apr 5, 2011 15:53:46 GMT -5
I think in a way, because of my high value for consciousness that in a way, all God's the many and one, all universal are on top of our heads. And we think with the top of our heads, so our thoughts make Gods exist and they exist due to our heads. Does a rock know Gods? I don't know... but assuming what I think I know is true, then rocks do not know. So is there no God for rocks? But we have heads with minds in them so we exist attached to our body... and at the top of our head Gods exist and we conceptualize this -- if we didn't think Gods would have no name, right?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2011 23:27:25 GMT -5
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." - Marcus Aurelius I personally believe that, if we were created by God, god's, goddesses, etc., the, whatever created us, & the laws of the universe would know what is beneficial for us. Not just physically beneficial ofcoarse, but also emotionally. So, I believe that worshipping whatever created us is beneficial to us, as long as that worship is not in a demeaning way, but by honoring laws, principles, etc. & being grateful for what we are given. We(especially me) don't always realise what is beneficial for us. Sometimes later in life as we gain experience, we appreciate life more, & what's been given us, even in a world that can be full of sadness(why there is sadness is a totally different subject though). I honestly believe that everyone has something they worship, even atheists. The Bible speaks of all sorts of god's. There are the god's of wood & stone ofcoarse, but, also I believe that people can worship money, sex, or their own belly(so to speak). I don't think there is anyone who wouldn't agree that it's possible to even worship oneself. Not that I can say for sure, as I believe only the Creator or creators can read hearts, but, I do believe that people that think too much of themselves, can actually in a sense be worshipping themselves. Not trying to stomp on anyone's beliefs, so, I aplogize in advance if I have done so. I just wanted to express my own thoughts on how I view worship, & whether it's important or not. Religion is such a touchy subject. Well said by the way, we all believe in something. Not too sure I fully understand your statement, but I think I agree with it. I don't think anything really matters as long as you live a positive/healthy lifestyle. I honestly don't know much about my traditional way of life (Ojibway/Chippewa). I'm still learning. From my understanding, we honor the spirits through offerings and ceremonies. But, I do know there is a Creator. I try to avoid anything on the internet because it is usually written from perspective. I prefer learning directly from the source, that being, my elders here in my community. Luckily, my grandparents are very traditional. They never told me to learn the traditional ways, I chose to learn myself. I went through a personal experience that led me to take an interest this way of life. The ceremony I went through dealt with making direct contact with a spirit from the otherside. This is usually done to answer important questions if a certain person is having difficult times in his/her life. I heard these spirits talk myself and I could actually see them in the form of balls of light. But of course, others will argue its a hallucination or worse... work of the devil. I honestly don't know what to say about that. That's just the way it is. My Indian name is Thunderbird. What most people can't seem to accept is that fact that it was given to me by a spirit. I'm not sure how to spell it out in my native language, but that is the English translation. I'm only sharing some of my experiences here since this religion thread seems to have taken off all of a sudden. I'll take a look at those links you sent me awhile back ParanoiaDragon when I have the time to read. The wood & stone God's part caught my attention also |
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Post by Raison D'etritus on Apr 6, 2011 3:04:40 GMT -5
Well put, PD. You make some very cogent observations, especially for a dogmatist (as you know, a lot of them are quite close minded). Interesting musings, as well, Smithee. It is often said that old gods die out when people stop believing in them. Rather Cartesian view of deities, really, but if they want our faith, it indicates they require it. Vindicated by the tendency of polytheistic belief systems to perish before the might of a jealous god. And Salamander, your Indian name is pretty awesome, as far as car names go. My Indian name is Mazda Miata.  (because I like my cars like I like my women: small, black, and topless) |
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Post by Lenalia on Apr 7, 2011 16:24:12 GMT -5
I honestly believe that everyone has something they worship, even atheists. The Bible speaks of all sorts of god's. There are the god's of wood & stone ofcoarse, but, also I believe that people can worship money, sex, or their own belly(so to speak). I don't think there is anyone who wouldn't agree that it's possible to even worship oneself. Not that I can say for sure, as I believe only the Creator or creators can read hearts, but, I do believe that people that think too much of themselves, can actually in a sense be worshipping themselves. In a general sense, I sort of agree, even though I wouldn't use the word "worship". IMO, people basically need something to center their life around. For some, it's a strong conviction in their religion. For others, it's their career. For me... well, it's generally been girls I fall head-over-heels for. I think this is a big part of the reason I had as much trouble as I did getting over my ex -- with the way she treated me in the end, I basically had my reason to keep on going pulled out from under me out of nowhere. This pretty much only left inertia and the poking and prodding and sympathy of others, for which I'm very grateful. Of course, the problem with this setup is basically what I've been facing for the past year or so -- that when I'm not in love with someone, I find it hard to motivate myself to do very much. I keep thinking that I should really clean up, that I should try to write and draw and be creative more than once in a blue moon, that I really need to exercise more and lose the weight I put on in the past year, that I should learn to play piano or take night classes in something to be more well-rounded. I keep thinking, but not doing, because I feel sort of like I'm drifting aimlessly through life right now. I don't really know what to do about that, though. I've considered myself an atheist for a while now, though I've begun to reconsider lately. I guess I can call myself agnostic at the moment, though I'm not against finding some sort of organized religion to be in. The thing is, I'd have to find a religion that fits in with the rest of my worldview. I used to be Christian, but I don't think Christianity is it -- and even if it was, I don't think I can worship at my old church in good faith anymore. So... hrm, I dunno. |
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Post by ParanoiaDragon on Apr 10, 2011 2:30:37 GMT -5
Salamander, I believe it's possible that it could've been a spirit. However, I believe besides their being good spirits, that there are definitely wicked spirits. So, I'm careful in my contact. I personally only contact God/Creator/Great Spirit in prayer. Biblically speaking, even the Devil can turn himself into an "angel of light". I'm not saying that's what you experienced, just that, I believe in being extra careful about the spirit world. I actually believe it's possible that the god's & goddesses in various cultures(Egyptian, Greek, Celtic, Nordic, etc.) thruout the centuries could all have existed, & still do, but, just by different names. One reason I believe this, is because of Hercules. He's supposed to be half god, half human, & ridiculously strong, & a man of fame. In the Bible, it speaks of a time when many spirits left the heavans, foresaking their proper dwelling place because they became enamored with the daughters of men. So they materialzed into human form & took them as wives, & created a hybrid called Nephilim. They were ridiculously strong, & were called men of fame. This actually led into the global flood, which, I think most Native American tribes also teach? You'd know better then I. I believe this event could be where the various stories of gods coming down to earth come from, including the mating of humans & spirits, to create so called heroes, like Hercules. Not that all the stories are totally accurate. But, alteast I think various gods over the centuries might be based on real spirits who took advantage of humans & craved worship from them. Oh, & as for the god's of wood & stone. Just to clarify, I mean that alot of people worship idols made of wood & stone, especially back then. There was even an account where a man called the Apostle Paul saw some kind of shrine or idol labled "to an unknown god". Infact, I think that atleast in some area's, there were big business oportunities for anyone that fashioned idols for people to worship. RaisonD'etritus, thanks. I don't always feel like I put my own thoughts well into words! Yeah, I know about closed mindedness, I try not to be. But I think most importantly, I just plain try not to sound insulting or demeaning to others beliefs. I get pretty paranoid about how I'm coming off, especially wnen I'm knocking at people's doors talking about the Bible. I take lot's of deep breaths, to try to stay calm, & I always try to have a listening ear for what they have to say. And even when they insult me or my religion, I always try to be rational & cordial. That's not to say I'm perfect, but rather, just that I keep trying to be a pleasant person despite all my flaws, & despite how others percieve me. Most people tend to think my goal is to force my beliefs, & go around converting people. But, I just present what I believe in & establish common ground if possible(I believe that everyone has some kind of common ground, even if it be video games ), & look for people that have questions about life & havn't been satisfied with the answers others have given them. Plus, I don't believe that anyone can convert someone else. I believe only a person can convert themself, based on if what they are learning seems logical &/or reasonable(though, what seems logical varies from person to person), as I definitely believe in free will. And I'm grateful for that, as I feel like I'm not spiritually inclined because I'm programmed that way, but rather, I have the choice to be a spiritual person. Bugen, yeah, I try to keep my own actual beliefs on life, etc. first, but, atleast for someone like me, I can put too much emphasis on video games, anime, etc.  While I believe these things aren't critical in life, I do believe in recreation. The Bible says there is a time for all things, including a time for recreation. I don't believe in being all consumed by my religious beliefs, but, I do try to not let other things overtake my time spent on spiritual things. It can be a real balancing act, including earning a living to put food on the table & a roof over one's head. As for the word worship, I can't really think of anyother way to describe it from my point of view. It's just something I've thought alot about. But yeah, I feel like whatever one centers there life around is like a form of worship in a way. What you said about losing motivation to do stuff, sounds like me before I was married. I used to preoccupy my thoughts with love, & couldn't motivate myself to do...well, anything at all(I'm sure me having OCD didn't help!)! At one point though, I didn't really care so much about finding love. I ended up having a "whatever will be, will be" attitude. To be honest, I kept praying for it, litterally. I started praying to just "find the right girl, at the right time". And for some reason, it worked. Not that it was immediate, it was something I kept praying for, & I personally believe that it worked. And, what's wierder, is that I ended up seemingly finding the right girl, at the right time. I was going thru alot of depression & anxiety for awhile, and the woman who is now my wife, was also going thru similar emtional stuff. When this was happening, we ended up being introduced to eachother(knew eachother from years ago, but, not on a personal level), & truly picked eachother up off the ground. Sure, maybe it was just coincidence, that's always possible. I don't believe God is up there getting involved in every single aspect of our lives. But, this is one time I really feel, like He helped me. I'm only telling you this because that's what I believe happened. I'm not saying that following in my footsteps would give the same results, cuz, like I say, it could all just be coincidence. I do believe that alot of stuff does just happen randomly. But, since I believe in God, I definitely believe he can help me as well. |
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Post by chapsy on Apr 17, 2011 16:55:40 GMT -5
The best take on this I heard was something roughly along the lines of: "I respect what Jesus did and stood for, but his fanboys scare me." i.e., believing in him and what he preached but still recognizing that a lot of people somehow distort his message of love into a message of hate and still claim to be following him, which is just sort of scary and wrong. that's the main problem I have with radical christians...and I guess christianity in general. The bible is a fairly huge grey area. It's open to many a different interpretation, leading to conflicting viewpoints, and differing attitudes. I tend to not be a religious person, as hardcored christians who twist the words in the bible to suit their own selfish needs and personal agendas really turned me off to it.(I had an experience with out family's pastor back home that pretty much made me swear it off) I do have many a christian friend though and they are all pretty good people. |
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While I believe these things aren't critical in life, I do believe in recreation. The Bible says there is a time for all things, including a time for recreation. I don't believe in being all consumed by my religious beliefs, but, I do try to not let other things overtake my time spent on spiritual things. It can be a real balancing act, including earning a living to put food on the table & a roof over one's head.
