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Post by Ranzor on Jan 13, 2009 1:02:23 GMT -5
Selduser-FM tried to fix the untranslated bit in NW's patch but it didn't really work.
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Post by FM-77AV on Jan 14, 2009 11:59:08 GMT -5
Sorry doods, I have not been using a computer much lately, I will try to edit those alpha channels shortly, making this supplemental patch fully working.
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Post by SkyeWelse on Jan 15, 2009 11:41:45 GMT -5
Thank you very much for working on that fix Seldane. It would be nice to have a complete version of the Felghana patch. Also, I'm glad that this community is not distributing the main patch for free since doing so would go against Nightwolve's wishes, since he had asked for donations prior to releasing it to the general public, which hasn't happened yet. I know that there are some that disapprove of Nightwolve's donation policy that created so many problems for possible future translation plans, but I'm glad to see that you all are at least respecting his wishes to keep it a donation only patch.
-Thomas
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Post by Copyrighted Name on Jan 30, 2009 20:13:23 GMT -5
From what I understand, Deuce felt the translation should be free and refused any money from the donations.
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Post by Ranzor on Jan 31, 2009 12:40:54 GMT -5
I think NightWolve is free to do what he wants and we should respect his decisions, since it's his work. I just wish he didn't consider those who don't agree with him as despicable criminals.
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Post by zaratus on Feb 2, 2009 16:48:19 GMT -5
Well, it seems he just released the patch on his site now, though it's the same as the patch that was leaked. Although I haven't downloaded it to check it or anything.
IMO, he's kinda gone off the deep end. Seriously, it's been two years now, let it go. His page reads like crazed ramblings. It's not pretty.
I, too, had donated prior to the leak. And, prior to the patch being released to the donators as well, by quite a bit of time. Hell, the reason I bought Ys I + II, and Oath in Felghana was because of the patches, and the impending Oath patch. I respect the work that he's put in, and Deuce's work of course. But, I look at the stuff he writes now, and I just shake my head. If he still wants donations, that's no way to get them, not at all.
And all he's doing is alienating the people who did support him, who did donate, who did buy the games, with his seemingly enraged ranting and juvenile name-calling.
Such a shame things ending up turning out this way though.
Back on topic: Just curious as to the translation you used for the mural text. I still have the translation sent to me back along with the patch when it was first released to donators, and I noticed that you used a different version. Most of the text is the same, but a few parts after the identity of the "speaker" is revealed describe things a bit differently.
If wanted, I could supply that text as I have it. *shrug*
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undamned
Lyus
Hyper Solid Shooting!
Posts: 120
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Post by undamned on Feb 2, 2009 18:34:35 GMT -5
IMO, he's kinda gone off the deep end. Seriously, it's been two years now, let it go. His page reads like crazed ramblings. It's not pretty. Yeah, he's still pissed, but honestly, I share his sentiments. Maybe I'm an elitest at heart, but I can't help but want to bar access from the freeloaders. It's not that hard to get the games. Seriously. After shipping I payed about $35 for each of YsC, Ysf, YsO, and Xanadu next. Most people can afford that, they just don't want to pay it. And you'd think that if someone could get the game for free, they'd be more likely to use the money they saved to support more fan xlations. But I guess if you are willing to steal a game, you are willing to take people's xlation work for granted, too. The numbers really are staggering. 2 out of 100 people using his patch donated. I'd be upset, wouldn't you? -ud
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Post by Justin on Feb 2, 2009 20:06:20 GMT -5
IMO, he's kinda gone off the deep end. Seriously, it's been two years now, let it go. His page reads like crazed ramblings. It's not pretty. Yeah, he's still pissed, but honestly, I share his sentiments. Maybe I'm an elitest at heart, but I can't help but want to bar access from the freeloaders. It's not that hard to get the games. Seriously. After shipping I payed about $35 for each of YsC, Ysf, YsO, and Xanadu next. Most people can afford that, they just don't want to pay it. And you'd think that if someone could get the game for free, they'd be more likely to use the money they saved to support more fan xlations. But I guess if you are willing to steal a game, you are willing to take people's xlation work for granted, too. The numbers really are staggering. 2 out of 100 people using his patch donated. I'd be upset, wouldn't you? -ud You do realize that you are putting down the morality of those who pirate the game, but are also not willing to "donate" to the person who created an unauthorized patch.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Feb 2, 2009 20:13:29 GMT -5
I think that's the point. ;D However, it IS wrong to antagonise those who have rightfully purchased the games and still refuse to donate -- it's a donation, not a payment. Otherwise, it'd be called a payment, not a donation. A donation is optional. A payment isn't. :P There's no such thing as a mandatory donation; it's a payment, plain and simple, an illegal payment for a legally questionable service that we feel obligated to accept. ;D
// Technically, there's nothing wrong with illegally obtaining something legally questionable that is illegally being sold under a "mandatory donation" clause -- unless it's an illegal drug. We're not talking about illegal drugs, however -- we're talking about a patch. Somehow that makes it right, because it's a different monster altogether -- an illegitimate biproduct of human creativity! ;D
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Post by Red Hairdo on Feb 2, 2009 20:58:54 GMT -5
Seriously. After shipping I payed about $35 for each of YsC, Ysf, YsO, and Xanadu next. Most people can afford that, they just don't want to pay it. That also depends on where you live. Not everywhere in the world is i.e. like the USA. Currency changes. Life-situation and style changes. Life reality itself changes. Some people do it on a whim or something. But I know many, many people who do it, because there is no other way. People who would gladly buy the actual games, but to do so they have to almost "starve to death", and that is obviously not wise. Fall into disgrace for a game. What do you choose: games or health/ be able to pay upcoming debts? I didn't mean to be too harsh. Sorry. but many people don't know the delicate situation of other people who live in a different reality.
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Post by Justin on Feb 2, 2009 23:49:36 GMT -5
Hey man, the Rza said it best "I just want people to listen to my music". I always make a point to buy stuff that I try, as long as I like it. Its a fine line, but I think its harmless in the grand scheme of things. People that sell pirated copies are the real "bad guys", and people usually forget that.
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undamned
Lyus
Hyper Solid Shooting!
Posts: 120
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Post by undamned on Feb 3, 2009 1:01:28 GMT -5
Currency changes. Life-situation and style changes. Life reality itself changes. Some people do it on a whim or something. But I know many, many people who do it, because there is no other way. People who would gladly buy the actual games, but to do so they have to almost "starve to death", and that is obviously not wise. Fall into disgrace for a game. What do you choose: games or health/ be able to pay upcoming debts? I didn't mean to be too harsh. Sorry. but many people don't know the delicate situation of other people who live in a different reality. Spare me the starving gamer sob story. I wanted to play video games in college. You know what I did? I saved and bought a used SNES (for like $16) from a pawn shop and my friends and I played ridiculous amounts of Tetris Attack. That was some of the best gaming days I can recall. Face it: gaming is a luxury. If you need to eat, then eat. If you can eat and afford a video game, you are in the top percentage of wealth in the world (seriously). I have sympathy for someone who can't afford food and steals food to survive. Games are not necessary for survival, so spare me such a heinously weak "justification" for theft. EDIT: Oh, and wyrdwad, I'm not saying that a piracy marketing model couldn't work in favor of a company, so don't think I'm crying about about ceo's going hungry at night. I'm talking about the wrongness of trying to justify stealing. Just because at the end of the day/year it may not actually harm a company (or even if it were to benefit them) the means does not justify the end. It's quite possible that there are any number of illegal activities I could engage in that would benefit "good" people, but for me to claim that because I brought something good from illegal activities, I should be exempt from my legal responsibility is quite backwards. -ud
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Post by zaratus on Feb 3, 2009 4:25:52 GMT -5
A lot of good points made.
Some of these companies hurt themselves with their DRM, because it makes the games so inconvenient, you get more people pirating them, just to get around the DRM. And people *always* get around the DRM.
I have a couple other examples I'd like to add here. One fairly recent indie game that came out, the author actually doesn't mind too much if people pirate it, as he's just glad that people are getting enjoyment out of his game, and also that he knows how it is to be dirt poor and hopes that his game helps get people through some hard times. And more than a few people who did pirate it, actually went and paid for it even.
The author specifically says regarding it: "If you’re living in extremely poor conditions, that’s very cool to me and I understand! I’m actually glad that you can have some great moments to forget your misfortune. On the other hand if you have a lot of spare money and don’t know what to do with it, I invite you to purchase the game, or send me a donation. "
Regarding the free download model, with option to buy, I've seen one game doing that already, even if it's something minor yet. Was kind of an experiment, I think. Basically, the game is free, but you pay for the level editor. And there's a couple other little perks. And every few months, he comes out with an 'expansion' of sorts for the editor, for a small fee. Sort of extra content for paying. Well, which seems to be how a lot of those "Free" MMORPGs work. Extra perks for paying money.
Which also kinda goes into another method here: Offer a free version, but have some sort of online extras for purchasing. Be it extra levels, soundtrack downloads, whatever. I had better ideas here, but I blanked out already.
The thing with the piracy numbers, companies see that as lost revenue. (Which also drives shareholders nuts.) So they spend money to try and get more revenue, but lately, it just tends to end up backfiring on them, causing people who would ordinarily pay, to pirate the game. But, even if say, 50000 people pirate a game, most of those people probably wouldn't have paid for it in the first place. Doesn't necessarily make it right, but DRM or not, they weren't paying. The companys look at that as 50000 sales lost, when it's really quite a bit less.
Sure, it would be nice if you could bar access from freeloaders/pirates, but it just ain't gonna happen. And it has *far* less of an impact than you would be led to believe, although it probably *is* a bit disheartening. Not to say all DRM is bad either. I think perhaps they should just stick with less intrusive forms of it. But, even many years ago, there were still cracks. Remember those games where at certain points, you would have to dig out the manual and get the third word of the fourth paragraph on page 117? Even those games had cracks, I remember at a friend's house, instead of a specific word, you just had to type in 'crack' or just press enter and it would bypass it. But systems like that still worked fairly well back then, as it was rather annoying to go around photocopying an entire 100+ page manual. Although those bloody rotating wheel thingamajigs were annoying. =P
As for the 98% freeloading rate for the patch. A large portion of that was probably after the big 'explosion'. And after two years of the leaked patch being available. (And I'm not sure if this factors in the same people installing it multiple times.) And the original plan was for the patch to be made public roughly a month or so after the date that the leak had happened.
Personally, reading the stuff on the website now, I wouldn't donate. Over a year ago, back when this was a bit more recent, I recall that after having played the game again, I was considering donating again, but ended up not doing so, because of the angry rants. It's a real turn-off to people who would normally give a donation out of thanks. The download numbers probably would have reached similar amounts anyway, after he had released it to the public like originally planned. Sure, I'd be pissed if it was me in his shoes, but I'm also rather easygoing, it's just not in me to hold a grudge for so long. *shrug*
I respect and appreciate the work he's done (along with Deuce, of course!), work that is far beyond my capabilities, but all I can do is shake my head now. I can't quite express how I feel about it, except reading the site and the various 'updates' just kinda leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth.
I don't mean for any of this to be a statement of sorts, or an "attack" or whatnot, just kinda my analysis of the situation. I don't feel that NightWolve was wrong to give the patch out early to donators and hold it off a bit for a public release. Even if he went through with his plan of actually charging for the planning Ys Origin patch, I wouldn't have minded. To me, it's worth it, to be able to play these games in English. *shrug* I don't feel that just because of the nature of the work it has to be free. Some felt otherwise, and that was fine, as the patch was going to be made available. Others were planning to donate, but not until it was made public.
Eh, I think I had a couple other points to make, but in the writing of this massive wall o' text, I lost them along the way. Basically, I just feel the whole thing got blown WAY out of proportion on BOTH sides.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Feb 3, 2009 5:01:21 GMT -5
Like I said in another thread (or possibly this one) I don't have a problem with Nightwolve. I just simply disagree with his methods. I don't doubt that it's possible for him to make a huge comeback, in spite of the improbability. I'd personally be happy if all sides concerned could shake hands for once. (:
That's my two cents.
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Post by Justin on Feb 3, 2009 9:36:16 GMT -5
Spare me the starving gamer sob story. I wanted to play video games in college. You know what I did? I saved and bought a used SNES (for like $16) from a pawn shop and my friends and I played ridiculous amounts of Tetris Attack. That was some of the best gaming days I can recall. Face it: gaming is a luxury. He is from Brazil Smartass If you did the research, Nintendo, Sony and Micro$hit are all having issues with the GOVERNMENTS in South American countries, because the tax and shipping levies are extremely high. A Wii easily sells for 300% higher than its American counterpart. Last time I checked people were bitching about the PS3 "Inflated" pricing, which is half of what it costs down there. Games are especially hard to come by, and that's why people pirate down there. His "Sob Story" is more educational than anything, and it would do you just to listen with an open ear. Sob story.... what a joke. Why do you think the Master System did so well in South America, even through the late 90's? Think about it for a while, then try explaining to me why you think its a "sob story".
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Post by Ranzor on Feb 3, 2009 12:19:32 GMT -5
Very well put, justinzero. Maybe Red Hairdo dind't express himself very well, but there's such a thing as a reasonable price. With all the taxes for importing software and hardware in Brazil, the price we get over here certainly isn't reasonable. Just to give an example, the PS2 did extremely well over here, but I know nobody who buys official games. What does that tell you? That we're a nation of derelicts? I don't think that's the point.
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Post by Yakra on Feb 3, 2009 14:23:53 GMT -5
Currency changes. Life-situation and style changes. Life reality itself changes. Some people do it on a whim or something. But I know many, many people who do it, because there is no other way. People who would gladly buy the actual games, but to do so they have to almost "starve to death", and that is obviously not wise. Fall into disgrace for a game. What do you choose: games or health/ be able to pay upcoming debts? I didn't mean to be too harsh. Sorry. but many people don't know the delicate situation of other people who live in a different reality. Spare me the starving gamer sob story. I wanted to play video games in college. You know what I did? I saved and bought a used SNES (for like $16) from a pawn shop and my friends and I played ridiculous amounts of Tetris Attack. That was some of the best gaming days I can recall. Face it: gaming is a luxury. If you need to eat, then eat. If you can eat and afford a video game, you are in the top percentage of wealth in the world (seriously). I have sympathy for someone who can't afford food and steals food to survive. Games are not necessary for survival, so spare me such a heinously weak "justification" for theft. No Red Hairdo's quite totally right about this. You live in the U.S. (I'm just assuming you do? Sorry if you don't!) so things might be considerably 'easier' for you guys but....... its a very different story here. First off, originals of games are not available here. For all the gaming companies, I suppose pakistan just doesn't exist on the world map (unless if they want some outsourcing work done!). X'D Secondly, not everyone has credit cards. (Here, I suppose your line about 'only those who can afford, deserve' applies. But hey! I'm well off! But........ I don't have one!). Third, the currency divide is HUGE. HUGE. As I said, I'm not poor by any standards. And I think with my standard of living and earning I might fall into the upper middle class, if not rich people. But 1$ is more than 80 Rupees now. If I was to import a game (or even a book) from say..... Play-Asia, the game would cost me 44+$. Add to that 50+$ shipping. And then a customs tax of 55%. One original game would cost me about 150$ (10,000+ Rupees)? A whole household could be run on that much. That's actually a whole month's salary for normal government servants. Middle class people. Who one would call well off. .........Basically, I'm not really trying to put forth a sob story in defense of pirating. Its just about whether one would want to order, wait, go argue with customs people, pay a fortune and then play, or just pop down Hall Road, pick up that pirated copy which is the only copy available in the country come back home in 5 minutes, and start playing. Not everyone is mad enough as me. And I don't think I would have ever been able to get my hands on any of the Ys games had it not been for adoru. Er......... I forgot the whole point I was trying to make with my rant. Ack! Basically! Half the people around here....... er..... actually NOBODY around here knows of Ys. Nobody that I've met. And those that I do tell about it, well....... they're not going to run off and start buying just like that. Not everyone can afford it anymore. Nor would they want to, having never played. Perhaps after trying they might. But not before. (and how would they try...? Pirating ofcourse~! ) [If one was to apply your theory here, that would mean only the feudal lords, royalty, politicians, ministers, filthy rich arab businessmen are worthy of playing games.]I kind of honestly believe if original games were available here, they wouldn't cost as much. (1000 Rs/8$ max?) As for Nightwolve, I'm still..... kind of sympathetic towards how he reacted. After all, in the beginning, with the OiF patch, he was going to give it out after a couple of months, ne? First serving to the loyal donators and all, no? But then the treachery happened. And perhaps its because I keep relating it to myself, but I think I would be pretty mad if one of my friends trotted off and displayed...... say..... one of my books in front of the public before I was ready to show myself. I mean..... its mine! I worked hard on it! I'd feel proud! And once shown, I'd give out free copies to whoever asked! But the impatient showing would feel almost like....... a betrayal? Er....... and then from there Nightwolve's anger seemed to have gone to an extreme. And has made him out to be an evil figure. Half mad almost. Sad. (Really, getting angry helps no one. Even if his cause for anger/warping of ideals was/is just, anger hardly ever gains sympathy. You just look worse off because of it and then no one listens to you!). If it helps, I would have probably paid because I felt so grateful for the guy taking his time out to actually make a patch, attitude or no attitude, but Paypal is just not available here. (And I probably contributed about 10 or so to those 10,000+ installations because it took me a while figuring out where and how I'd installed Ys OiF, back when I was testing about with the pirated copy~! eh heh heh heh heh~~~! XD *shot*)Wow....... what a long rant I ranted about money differences! Sorry!!
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Post by Red Hairdo on Feb 3, 2009 17:37:19 GMT -5
Justinzero, Ranzor and Yakra are right. The taxes are an absurd. I remember when the PS3 first came out: it was about R$6000,00 here (that's nearly US$3000,00 or US$4000,00...). It was SO expensive that it was VERY funny. Much later price fell to R$4000,00. Then R$3000,00. It's not getting much lower than that now though. You see, I got a PSP Slim and DS Lite. But how? Of course, my uncle brought them for me after his trip to the US. I would never buy them here. The problem is not only the taxes... but our country is really full of poor and miserable people. I'm just one of the few lucky ones who isn't a part of the majority. Though even low class people here can afford a PC, if they pay for it a bit at a time. Luckily computer hardwares, even with the taxes, have very viable prices and are accessible to many. After that's done, anyone can enjoy "anything" through piracy. But it's either that or nothing, you know. Note: I said "starve to death" between inverted commas for a reason; I didn't mean it literally. But I did mean paying for the original games is crazy. It's out of question for the masses here. Again, I hope I didn't sound mean or offensive. I'm just trying to be as informative as possible. It's not your or NightWolve's or anyone's fault for not actually knowing all that stuff, because you don't live here (or anywhere with similar problems). All I say is, try to be as open-minded as possible... (When I told NightWolve about these things via e-mail, he never replied back to me. )
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undamned
Lyus
Hyper Solid Shooting!
Posts: 120
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Post by undamned on Feb 3, 2009 19:19:17 GMT -5
He is from Brazil Smartass If you did the research, Nintendo, Sony and Micro$hit are all having issues with the GOVERNMENTS in South American countries, because the tax and shipping levies are extremely high. ... Why do you think the Master System did so well in South America, even through the late 90's? You're muddying up the water here, justin. Distribution has nothing to do with theft being ok or not. If the US were behind the times and all I had was my [insert old system here], I'd still play that thing all the time, even if all I had was one game (refer to my Tetris Attack story). Think about it for a while, then try explaining to me why you think its a "sob story". No thought required because I already covered this in my previous post: unless it's for survival, there's no justification for theft. One fairly recent indie game that came out, the author actually doesn't mind too much if people pirate it, as he's just glad that people are getting enjoyment out of his game, and also that he knows how it is to be dirt poor and hopes that his game helps get people through some hard times. And more than a few people who did pirate it, actually went and paid for it even. The author specifically says regarding it: "If you’re living in extremely poor conditions, that’s very cool to me and I understand! I’m actually glad that you can have some great moments to forget your misfortune. On the other hand if you have a lot of spare money and don’t know what to do with it, I invite you to purchase the game, or send me a donation. " Regarding the free download model, with option to buy, I've seen one game doing that already, even if it's something minor yet. Was kind of an experiment, I think. Basically, the game is free, but you pay for the level editor. And there's a couple other little perks. And every few months, he comes out with an 'expansion' of sorts for the editor, for a small fee. Sort of extra content for paying. Well, which seems to be how a lot of those "Free" MMORPGs work. Extra perks for paying money. Which also kinda goes into another method here: Offer a free version, but have some sort of online extras for purchasing. Be it extra levels, soundtrack downloads, whatever. I had better ideas here, but I blanked out already. That's all good and well, but unless this is Falcom's methodology, it fails in the context of this discussion: pirating Ys games. The thing with the piracy numbers, companies see that as lost revenue. (Which also drives shareholders nuts.) So they spend money to try and get more revenue, but lately, it just tends to end up backfiring on them, causing people who would ordinarily pay, to pirate the game. Wait what? People who can afford the game are being "caused" to pirate by game companies? How does that work exactly? (Mad props for knowing your PC heritage, by the way There are probably 10 people on these boards who even remember manual anti-piracy) .........Basically, I'm not really trying to put forth a sob story in defense of pirating. Its just about whether one would want to order, wait, go argue with customs people, pay a fortune and then play, or just pop down Hall Road, pick up that pirated copy which is the only copy available in the country come back home in 5 minutes, and start playing. I think you summed it up pretty well: if it's inconvenient and/or costly, then steal it. Seriously people, if I had hardly any money, no credit card, and lived in Brazil or wherever, this is what I'd do: I would get all my gaming buddies together and we would all chip in to import games through whatever store we could find (given that someone we know has the internet, like all of you) that will accept international money orders (don't tell me that you can't find import stores that take international money orders, because I speak from personal experience). Even if we all could only afford to share 1 game every 6 months or even a year, we'd still have a blast and would undoubtedly appreciate what we had more than anyone. -ud
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Post by Red Hairdo on Feb 3, 2009 19:50:48 GMT -5
Seriously people, if I had hardly any money, no credit card, and lived in Brazil or wherever, this is what I'd do: I would get all my gaming buddies together and we would all chip in to import games through whatever store we could find (given that someone we know has the internet, like all of you) that will accept international money orders ( don't tell me that you can't find import stores that take international money orders, because I speak from personal experience). Even if we all could only afford to share 1 game every 6 months or even a year, we'd still have a blast and would undoubtedly appreciate what we had more than anyone. -ud If you mean actual stores that physically exist, then no, we don't. xD And it's not that simple either, you know. I think you are forgetting something VERY important: for purchasing anything abroad, one has to at least know english. I think you are forgetting to consider the country in question's main language. In Brazil's case, it's portuguese. How will the majority buy games abroad? I think not even 1% of the population knows it. ... *sigh*, but most importantly, you're missing the point. Economizing to the extreme is the way of living from the locals here. If there's something that can be obtained for a lower price, or even for free, people will aim for it. Actually most people who pirate here don't even know that pirating is legally wrong. They don't even use that word; people say "copy" or don't say anything at all. They got already so much to worry about that this subject isn't entering in their "concerns list". Since they won't be buying the games no matter what, because they don't have the means to do so (be it either money or language barrier), the companies in question won't profit anyway. So if they download the stuff or not, it won't matter for those that matter: the companies. I told you, it's a different reality, it's "another world" if I may. I even said it's fine not to know about how it is, because you don't live here. But from the looks of it, I don't think you are open-minded enough to see it... Therefore I can't do nothing else.
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