Poor grammar and misspellings in fan translations

[Incog Neato]

Does anyone else find it offensive when the people that fan-translate manga, anime, games, etc. pump out shitty translations? I'm talking about things that make it seem like they don't even know the language that they're translating stuff to!

I mean, yeah, they're doing people a favour by giving us the chance to read something in a language we understand but I just feel that they should be a bit more serious about the QUALITY of their works.

Honestly, if some crapoid group is my ONLY choice in ever seeing a particular title in English, I will not be masochistic and subject myself to Zero Wing-like stuff.

[AllenSmithee]

Yeah, I'm like that too. It's why I stopped readign the translations of Berserk. Sometimes the really good translations I don't even want to read, like 20th Century Boys. The art is so good on paper, it feels weird to read it on a DS...

[sushi]

I don't think I HAVE ever come across a crappy fan translation - But I certainly wouldn't be OFFENDED if I did. I'm too nice. If it's fully done and understandable, I honestly don't give a toss.

[tancients]

Hey now, Mei talks like that normally!

[Ashurei]

I can't say I've seen anything absolutely horrible as far as fan translations go. In most cases, I generally accept that they're not going to be the best of the best (in the case of anime), and even then, everything I've seen has been fine, at worst. Maybe I just haven't been looking at the right (wrong?) translations.

There have been times where I catch errors that aren't particularly jarring or distracting, but enough (and enough of them) for me to wonder if I should offer to proofread this stuff for people. Then I realize I don't want to commit to anything like that, hah.

[Raison D'etritus]

I tend to dislike bad grammar even in common dialogue. In professional media (even unprofessionally altered media) I downright hate it.

And Smithee, I completely agree about Berserk. I can still read it, but some of it's just downright amateurish and I find it quite grating.

When poor language is a trademark of a character, of course it's a different matter, but I've seen some anime where the translators obviously did not know much English and most of the sentences were completely garbled gibberish which actually took some consideration to make sense out of. When a fan has to retranslate a fan translation it's pretty damn annoying.

[AllenSmithee]

Actually, I have a certain level of appreciation for crappy translations, but only in the right mindset, like for old OVAs and such. But, y'know, my grammar and whatever is highly inconsistant and never all that great even at its finest (neither is my spelling, I think I spelled inconsistant wrong). Nevertheless I've been finding myself with a knack for rants and essays at school, something I never thought I'd be good at.

[tancients]

A large part of it probably stems from a lack of an editor of any kind. While it isn't mandatory (if the translator themselves has a competent grasp on the language they're localizing into), a lot don't. You can even see what happens without an editor in official releases of translated games. More common in small companies simply because more people need to take on more roles.

Then there is also the case of "Look maw, I drew this!" where people are more excited about pushing out a 'finished' production rather than giving it that polish. It's why I label my videos as alpha. Once that alpha is gone, you'll know it's a formal video rather than a show-off/fun.

[AllenSmithee]

Shinsen did okay for the Casshern subs, shame the show ended up laming out. I really like TVNihon, if only for their awesome catalogue

[ausdoerrt]

With all honesty, I like the "fansub etiquette" - i.e. don't like it, don't watch it, don't flame and be thankful someone releasing that stuff for you for free.

Naturally, this doesn't extend to troll-subs, and I think constructive criticism of really bad subs is only appropriate. But pointless flaming is just that - pointless, not to mention aggravating.

There aren't that many bad-quality fansubs around. Most are reasonably well-done. For scanlations, the quality is a bit lower, but still acceptable. TBH, the quality of subs on some official DVD releases, or the likes of CR is crappy a lot more often than on fansub releases.

[ausdoerrt]

Wut? Hate for Shinsen? As I recall, they were pretty good 2-3 years ago, and I still have some of their subs. They haven't subbed anything worth watching recently, though, so can't say if they've gotten worse.

Ultimately, most of the different groups are the same people traveling back and forth and renaming themselves. Ultimately, it only matters who the translator is. Although I think more groups should be releasing their subs in .srt or similar format.

[ausdoerrt]

WTH is Jubei-chan anyway? But yeah, I guess I tend to watch shows most of the time that are either popular enough or intellectually engaging enough to attract good translators and make them put forth a decent effort. You know, the niche stuff.

I don't have my anime-HDD with me, so I can't check which series it was that I have translated by them. I think it was Shana S1 or something.

That said, wyrdy, why do you even watch anime subbed anyway? Your Japanese is heaps better than mine, and I have thought time and again of switching over to RAWs entirely. I watched a few series RAW and feel like I missed very little. You could probably watch stuff freely.

[ausdoerrt]

^ Haven't seen anything he directed. Jubei-chan seems to be like a "turn off your brain" series that I'd possible watch if I had nothing to do, but that's not gonna happen anytime soon ^___^ Besides, I haven't finished Sailor Moon yet, lol.

I find it that shows that have content/language above average level or with especially good writing aren't taken lightly by fansubbers and are only picked up by those who actually feel confident in their skills. It may take little effort to translate a Bleach episode, I could probably do it myself, but translations out of hell for things like Zetsubou Sensei don't come easily. Same goes for niche series. This doesn't seem to apply in any way to Shinsen though.

TBH, I've been sticking to gg while they still had good translators; now that they're dead it may be for the better; it also seems that the other groups I follow have ex-gg people working for them, so yeah. Fansub groups are incestuous like that.

[Valr]

I sure hate it :[..

Back when people started selling anime bootlegs on eBay I think '99 or '00, I was suckered into buying a few of them. The image quality was good, but the subtitles were absolutely HORRENDOUS. The Utena I purchased pops into my head instantly, they misspelled character names, places, and even misspelled "the" and "going" and other simple words MANY times. Paypal had no protection against bootlegs at the time, so I was F'D in the A.

[lailmith]

Does that stuff actually exists so much - mean the awful fansubs? I have mostly encountered only ok, good and awesome fan subs ^^

What I am more concerned about is the 'official' sh.. stuff. I really feel decieved as I encounter undescribleable awful official translation stuff.. And then I should support it? no ty really.. well its not time for me to express my 'not so nice'-emotions towards certain houses or whatever. but still...

back on topic: typos and minor grammar mistakes i can stand (not a native english speakere here) but if they are constant and/or total failures - like the meaning changes or gets difficult to understand - thats awful

[megalink101]

Mar 22, 2010 17:51:18 GMT -5 Wyrdwad said:

Honestly, I've never encountered an official translation that's been absolutely horrible (save for 4Kids stuff, anyway)... it may be poorly dubbed, but the actual dialogue is almost always translated competently, if not really well. I find poor-quality fansubs are actually more common than poor-quality official releases - but then, SUPER-AWESOME-quality fansubs are also more common than SUPER-AWESOME-quality official translations, too.

-Tom

I know something about this so let me add something to this discussion. Fansubs can have decent quality because fansubbers do not need to deal with the mouth flaps like a professional studio does and insert voice work. Try getting fansubbers to do the voice work and you will end up with crap guaranteed. Professional studios also have to translate the subtitles with limited deviation from the original voice work, too. That is the main reason there is a difference.

Also, I have seen hundreds if not thousands of fansubbed stuff floating around on the net and I have never seen a fansub that even remotely comes close to the quality of a professional translation group like the one that worked on FREEDOM. If you have not seen that one, check it out. That one is top-notch quality and one of the best translations out there. No fansubbers can match that one. And just in case you were wondering, I have seen what the fansubbers have done with Clannad, Clannad: After Story, Kanon, Air, Guin Saga, the Tales anime, and you name it.

My company has definitely talked about taking on another translator in Osaka, but a good translator is hard to find and the worst problem is that most people think they are writers when they are, in fact, not. When I see how liberal or just plain wrong many fansubbers are with what they are working on, I just shake my head and think that these people do not understand as much Japanese as they think they do. If this was a professional job, our clients would be extremely upset if one of our staff just deviated from the original author or script writer's work without consulting them first and giving a very good reason as to why.

Anyway, I wanted to say that we do watch what people here translate and I think that of everyone's work I have seen, Floofy could be a pretty good translator if she took another year or two and brushed up her Japanese grammar and language skills as well as passed the Japanese-Language Proficiency Tests. By the way, is anyone on this site JLPT certified?

[Skeletore has a boner]

I am(level 2). It was 7 years ago though and standards have changed since then if you had a test question, if you meant about looking for people to do work I'm not looking atm.

When I see how liberal or just plain wrong many fansubbers are with what they are working on, I just shake my head and think that these people do not understand as much Japanese as they think they do. If this was a professional job, our clients would be extremely upset if one of our staff just deviated from the original author or script writer's work without consulting them first and giving a very good reason as to why.

I worked as a professional localization manager for 5 years(capcom, Japanese to French for the Qubec market) and honestly, this is the only thing I slightly disagree with.
Anytime you have cross-culture a certain amount of liberty is a necessary evil, you're writing for a new audience, not the original one, and I believe at that point the work belongs(metaphysically) more to the new writer than the original. This is why many creative types detest their work getting translated(or made into movies, books, whatever) to begin with, because they essentially have to give someone else creative control over their creation.

I don't see that as a bad thing, though I agree it certainly turns OUT bad often enough.


Funny enough after being sick and tired of "professional" localization I'm actively looking to get into doing fan translations for games, kind of a big technical barrier to overcome when you don't have experience hacking roms/isos as opposed to just having scripting(as in, a written script, not scripting like javascript) engines you used at work.

[megalink101]

Sept 14, 2010 22:26:13 GMT -5 Wyrdwad said:

Megalink: I dunno, I'd say there are a handful of fansub groups out there that TYPICALLY release works of a quality FAR SURPASSING most legitimate releases -- like Live-eviL, and AnimeCoalition (the latter in particular -- I dare anyone to watch their fansubs of Ashita no Nadja and NOT be impressed by the quality of their translations!).

I also should note, though, that excessive literalness is something I absolutely HATE in translations, and it's something MOST official works tend to suffer from. They remain completely faithful to the original Japanese, which -- in turn -- makes them sound awkward and stilted in English. I far, FAR prefer translations that take heavy liberties with the original script in favor of writing natural-sounding English dialogue. It's as I always say: "translate the idea, not the words."

A good example is the ever-popular phrase, "仕方ない." Most official subs (and a lot of fansubs) tend to translate this as, "There's no helping it." Which is completely accurate... but when's the last time you've EVER heard someone say that in English?!

I'd much rather see that translated as something like, "Well, then that just sucks!"... or "Que sera sera"... or pretty ANYTHING other than, "There's no helping it."

A good compromise would be something like, "Nothing you can do about THAT, I guess..." -- or something along those lines. But even that sounds a teensy bit awkward.

(I should note, though, that while most professionally-translated SUBTITLED anime seems to take this literal approach, there's been a recent trend toward professionally-translated DUBBED anime taking a more liberal, natural-sounding approach, with a script that usually differs pretty significantly from the subtitles. And those, I must admit, have really been great in recent years.)

-Tom

Like I explained with fansubbing before, fansubbers cannot do dubbing and produce the same result as they do with the subtitles. If we had fansubbers doing the dubbing too, it would be crap, and only expose their inability to produce quality voice-overs. That even goes for Live-eviL or AnimeCoalition.

Also, as I explained before, both the dubbing and subtitles have to be fairly close to each other. For the hearing impaired, of course, details like [doorbell chimes] or [phone rings] are added, but you cannot just go off and do your own thing and expect the parent company to give you accolades.

Anyway, I found "Ashita no Nadja" on Youtube, and needless to say, I was not impressed. I clicked around on the time bar for not more than a few seconds and almost instantly found a glaring error. Check out the link below at about 2:51.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAkWDGOQC8g&feature=related

The old woman says: "It's started to blow... The winds of destiny..."

That is a singular form contrasted with a plural form in the same sentence and is grammatically wrong. Any professional translation company would have picked up on that mistake in a heartbeat and that particular episode would have never made it through QA.

Funny you should mention the phrase "Que será será" though, because it is just utter nonsense, and to top it off, it is grammatically "stilted" like no other. The phrase itself does not originate from the Spanish language, either. If I remember correctly (but please do not quote me on this), it was some musicians who coined the phrase for a movie way back in the day and has become a plague to the English language ever since.

I completely understand what you are saying with "仕方がない” and how to translate it, but the problem with what you are saying, is that you are giving the impression that the phrase only has one "literal" way of being translated, which is absolutely not the case. This is why I shake my head so often and say that most people do not know as much Japanese as they profess to.

-----

Also, when it comes to a translated work belonging to the translator, I think that is false because it was not their own idea to begin with. If they want to own their own work, they should write something themselves and stop leeching off of someone else's work while trying to make a name for themselves in the process. Writers make a name for themselves through their own original work and the same should go for translators, too.

Anyway, this is an interesting discussion.

[Incog Neato]

Ooh. An interesting insight! I never considered the dubbing factor. o_O

But back to the fan-translators -- could their works also be affected by a limitation of their knowledge of the English language? I mean, when wyrd gets going, he can bust out some "big words" that I never knew existed. :P It seems to me that having a large vocabulary can really help with creatively expressing things ... which would probably cut down on the whole bit of being literal.

Anyway, it's actually kind of fun to see multiple scanlation groups working on the same manga because there is SUCH a contrast between groups. ^^ It's all the same lines in Japanese but written differently by each group in English!

As someone who is illiterate to Japanese, I'm content with reading subs or manga translations that have natural-sounding dialogue. I would have no idea how accurate the translations are though. :\

[megalink101]

Sept 15, 2010 12:12:45 GMT -5 Incog Neato said:

Ooh. An interesting insight! I never considered the dubbing factor. o_O

But back to the fan-translators -- could their works also be affected by a limitation of their knowledge of the English language? I mean, when wyrd gets going, he can bust out some "big words" that I never knew existed. :P It seems to me that having a large vocabulary can really help with creatively expressing things ... which would probably cut down on the whole bit of being literal.

Anyway, it's actually kind of fun to see multiple scanlation groups working on the same manga because there is SUCH a contrast between groups. ^^ It's all the same lines in Japanese but written differently by each group in English!

As someone who is illiterate to Japanese, I'm content with reading subs or manga translations that have natural-sounding dialogue. I would have no idea how accurate the translations are though. :\

In answer to your question, about whether or not people's limited knowledge of English affects the translation quality, I would have to say that is definitely a factor. However, what affects the translation quality even more, is actually people's limited knowledge of the foreign language from which they are translating. It is actually very easy to write natural sounding dialogue because we, as native speakers of the English language, speak in natural sounding English all the time. That said, whether or not the translation is correct, is an entirely different story. Therefore, when doing translation, it is just as important to understand the foreign language from which you are translating, as it is to understand your own language.

I think one of the biggest problems I see from most fan translators is the fact that they really do not understand the Japanese, but they have ultra-expensive electronic dictionaries that they constantly pull words and phrases from in an effort to compensate for their lack of knowledge. Unfortunately, this can lead to mistranslations because the words and phrases they use are sometimes wrong.

Also, having a big vocabulary is never a bad thing; and I agree, Wyrdwad does have a pretty good command of the English language, but big words are not always the answer when it comes to translation, as the best way may sometimes be to go the simple route.

-----

Here is test for some of the fan translators out there. Can anyone translate the following correctly?

1. 掌を指すように明らか

2. 効能書きを並べる

3. 山勘が当たる

4. 牛耳を執る