Poor grammar and misspellings in fan translations

[megalink101]

Sept 15, 2010 22:28:14 GMT -5 Wyrdwad said:

Also, as I explained before, both the dubbing and subtitles have to be fairly close to each other. For the hearing impaired, of course, details like [doorbell chimes] or [phone rings] are added, but you cannot just go off and do your own thing and expect the parent company to give you accolades.

Actually, most anime DVDs nowadays use COMPLETELY different scripts for the dub and subtitled versions of the show. You can even turn on both the English language track and English subtitles, and marvel at HOW different they are, most of the time! And the dub script almost always takes lots of liberties, often to the height of the ridiculous (take Ghost Stories, for example, where they essentially threw away the Japanese script and wrote their own highly-offensive parody script for the dub, yet remained true to the original Japanese for the subtitles -- case in point, and yes, that's from the actual officially-licensed U.S. DVD distribution of the show 学校の怪談).

So it is, in fact, ENTIRELY possible to be a professional translator who gets to take as many liberties as he/she wants. Hell, in the gaming industry especially, it's practically a given -- at XSEED, we're pretty much told NEVER to translate literally, because it sounds absolutely terrible. And we're given full creative freedom to translate and edit the text however we feel it would sound best. That's how you wind up with those occasional references and quotes from other things in our scripts -- a practice I'm sure you don't condone, but which I think most gamers rather enjoy, and which translators and editors absolutely LOVE.

Personally, if I play a game with well-timed, well-thought-out references and quotes, I'm ecstatic, and generally consider that to be a VERY WELL-LOCALIZED TITLE.

As for your quiz, I had some answers posted, but decided to remove them... as another rule I generally try to live by is, "no context, no translation." I don't just translate phrases when I can help it, because the best possible translation of a phrase invariably depends on the context in which that phrase is set. So if you want me to answer your quiz questions, I recommend you give me some example sentences.

Also, regarding that AnimeCoalition clip: ONE GRAMMAR TYPO does not make an entire translation worthy of dismissal. I don't honestly remember having caught ANY typos while watching the 30+ episodes of the show I've seen using their translations, so I can assure you, typos like that don't slip by very often. And honestly, I've seen professionally-released DVDs (particularly recent Sentai Filmworks releases) containing several MUCH MORE GLARING typos than that.

Typos happen, professional or not. Even my favorite translations are riddled with them. In the end, though, it's the overall quality of the translation that matters, NOT whether or not there's a typo here or there. Humans are fallible creatures that make mistakes... I've learned to deal with that, and move on.

-Tom

Once again, when you do your own thing, you are discounting and disrespecting someone else's work. Are any of the games XSEED translates, theirs? No. So why are they doing whatever they feel like with them? Working Designs took a lot of heat for this from Sony because of the garbage they inserted in Alundra and other games for the Playstation and where are they now? Shut down and out of business.

On a personal level, if I was a Japanese creator and XSEED was translating something that I had created, and your company took the "We'll do what we like with your work!" stance with me, I would cancel my license agreement with XSEED and go find someone else who would respect my work.

The other problem with inserting all these cultural references into a game, is that time ticks on and games age. When you write a story free of these things, the story becomes timeless. Many of us have noticed how Working Designs' games do not have that punch they once used to because there is now a generation gap between the games they translated and the current generation. The jokes they inserted are no longer funny, the product names they inserted are no longer in the limelight on television, etc.

Now let us look at the Japanese versions of these same games. Needless to say, they do not have this problem and they are still as good story-wise as the day they were first introduced into the gaming world. Are the graphics as good as today? No. Is the music quality as good as today? No. Are they still fun to read and play? That is a definite "Yes."

Also, somehow I doubt that "Ashita no Nadja" has only ONE typo in the entire translated series considering the fact that the episode I linked to was the only one I checked on YouTube and I only clicked around on the time bar about 2 or 3 times before I found it. What are the chances that I found the only glaring error in the whole series like that? I think you know as well as I do that the probability of that is like one in a trillion or maybe even higher.

Anyway, I have not seen Ghost Stories, but that is definitely not the norm when it comes to the translation of anime. If the dub and the subtitles are not comparably similar that would be a problem for most companies I am familiar with.

Once again, however, AnimeCoalition or whoever else fansubs does not have to deal with the mouth flaps like a professional company, because if they did, it would be crap. You know it and I know it. Plus, a bunch of these fansubbers probably live in their mom's basement and so access to quality voice actors is basically an impossibility. Either way, what they are doing is called "transmission of copyrighted material" and it is highly illegal. It makes me wonder though how many of these people are in jail with the recent crackdown by both American and Japanese companies regarding piracy. I would not be surprised if some of these people were put away for a long time because letting anime loose on the Internet costs the anime companies in the hundreds of millions of dollars each year in lost revenue. It literally costs about a quarter of a million dollars just to make a single 30 minute episode and maybe even more for some of the other big name animation houses. Gonzo is now out of business and rampant piracy and people leaking their episodes on the Internet had a lot to do with it--of course, some of their bad business decisions on what stories to make into an anime did not help either (and that is clearly their own fault).

Anyway, as far as the idioms go, let us give people a few more days and I will post the answers. Wyrdwad, as you requested I will post something in context for you in the next day or so.

[Nalacakes]

I don't want to butt in on this discussion too much, but...

Sept 14, 2010 12:27:48 GMT -5 megalink101 said:

By the way, is anyone on this site JLPT certified?

I don't think this is in any way relevant. I passed the “ñ‹‰ two years ago and am reasonably confident I can pass the new N1 this year, but I don't think the format of the test is a very effective gauge of Japanese knowledge at all. When I sat the “ñ‹‰ I had never studied Japanese in an academic facility, I did next to no revision, and I only knew maybe a quarter of the words on the test's vocabulary list. Yet I still scored in the upper 80s thanks to the multiple choice format and the largest chunk of the marks being drawn from the reading section, which is by far my strongest suit in Japanese. There's also the issue of the test in no way providing for assessment of written and spoken skills. I'm sitting the test's highest level this Christmas, yet my writing in Japanese is still filled with beginner's errors, and I'm so hopeless at speaking that if a Japanese person were to speak to me they'd probably assume I had barely been studying the language for more than a few months.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite fond of the test because I enjoy challenging myself in subjects I like, and the test does provide its share of challenges at the highest levels. Still, I really don't think it's a good way of grading someone's ability with the language. I don't know how many of the members here have passed the upper levels of the test, but I can say with certainty that I'm among the lower echelons here as far as Japanese knowledge is concerned. So I honestly don't think it matters if I have a couple of certificates and they don't. The test clearly isn't a very good way of grading someone's proficiency with Japanese if someone with my limited ability is capable of passing its higher levels.

[Nalacakes]

Sept 17, 2010 9:45:37 GMT -5 Wyrdwad said:

Don't be so hard on yourself, Fai -- your Japanese is great, from what I've seen! Though I think your point is a good one, as tests do deviate quite a bit from real-world scenarios.

-Tom

Thank you very much, but I don't think I'm being too hard on myself. I'm actually really pleased with how far I've come with Japanese since I started studying. I'm at the level where I can enjoy if not always 100% comprehend most native-level materials in the language, which was more or less my goal when I started. Still, I'm not under any illusions about how far I have to go. I'm still miles away from any sort of fluency, and I'm reluctant to translate things as anything more than an exercise for my own self-improvement. There are at least four or five members here who I know are substantially better than me, along with a number who very probably are. My Japanese isn't bad, but it's not especially good either. And if I can feel as if I have a serious chance at passing the N1 this Christmas, it can't be a very good measure of Japanese ability.

I don't know. It just seemed a strange question to ask. I know it's a valuable qualification in the eyes of many employers, but I've always felt it's all but useless as a measure of actual ability with the Japanese language, and whether or not some of the people here have it seems sort of irrelevant. I know that no matter how many JLPT certificates I pick up, I still have a long way to go to catch up to some of you.

[Incog Neato]

!?

I thought Working Designs went kaput because they weren't making back the money they spent on games. o_O Or that Vic Ireland wanted to move on to other things or something but this is the first time I heard of the bit about Sony being pissed off at their translations.

[Incog Neato]

Sept 17, 2010 15:45:59 GMT -5 Wyrdwad said:

It's a real shame, too, as I was very much in the pro-Working Designs camp. I loved their translations, outdated references and all. I still laugh every time I hear all the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie references in Popful Mail. (:

This sort of stuff tends to annoy me. :(

I think in Growlanser II (or III), they had some reference to some US president and I immediately thought, "WTF? There was NO WAY that was in the original Japanese dialogue!" :P

[HJ]

I can't really remember any weird references in Alundra, but since I'm Danish it's entirely possible they just went over my head. I do remember the actual gameplay and the story though. Anyway, I don't think cramming a game full of references is a good idea, as it sounds like it could easily end up detracting from the game's atmosphere. Also, if you want to know when the game was made, check the back of the cover or look it up on Wikipedia. That's not what dialogue is for....

Edit: Just saw Wyrd's post. I liked the Castlevania reference, in and cases like that I don't see references doing any harm either.

[HJ]

I can't remember who carries Alundra on their head, but unless it was a monster in the process of kidnapping him that sounds extremely out of character, although it would be a nice line if used appropriately.

[Incog Neato]

Oh, I agree that if it more or less maintains the original idea then it's alright. However, stuff that's completely out of the blue and has NOTHING to do with the original text should never be put into a translation since you're not even translating anymore if you do that. :P

[Ascended Mermaid]

Ha! Yesterday I did my best Arnold impersonation. o.o

Dahnald wants aus to put dat cookie daun, get to da choppah, and get out of heyah!

Strangely enough it was good enough to get a few laughs out of my family.

One day, I'd like to find an agent, and try my hand at voice acting. Of course, I don't think my hand would make a good voice actor, but I might!

[Skeletore has a boner]

Me and Wyrd being on the same side of an argument disturbs me.

[Ascended Mermaid]

I quite like it!

Pie!

[megalink101]

Sept 16, 2010 21:01:51 GMT -5 Wyrdwad said:

If the dub and the subtitles are not comparably similar that would be a problem for most companies I am familiar with.

Most every dub I've seen in the last 5 years has had a totally different script from the subtitles. Case in point, a recent viewing of mine: Hell Girl. Let's see if I can pull up some examples.

Here we go... watch 0:32 in this clip:


In the show's subtitles, this speech is written as follows:

Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Demeaning and bringing harm to others,
A damned soul wallowing in sin...
Care to give death a try?

The presentation of the straw doll toward the beginning of the episode diverges even more than this. Observe 2:33 in this video:


Compare to the subtitle script (disclaimer: I'm taking a website at its word here because I'm too lazy to actually pop in the DVD, but I do know that the "curses come home to roost" line is accurate to the official subtitles, at the very least):

"Once you have your retribution, you will have to pay the price for it as well. Curses come home to roost. If you enter into the covenant, you, too, will go to Hell. You will never see Heaven, and your soul will wander for eternity in pain and agony... That's only after you die, though."

In both of these cases (and throughout the rest of the show, in fact), I *far far FAR* prefer the excellent dub script, as it just sounds so much more natural and ominous than the far more literal subtitle script.

Other shows that feature similar differences between the two scripts include R.O.D. the TV, Kamichu, Hellsing, School Rumble, and both seasons of The Tower of Druaga. There's also the famous example of Paranoia Agent, where different terminology was used between the dub and sub -- in the subtitled script, the main villain was referred to in untranslated Japanese as "Shounen Bat." In the dub script, however, he was called "Li'l Slugger."

And a good example of a show that DOESN'T feature much (if any) difference between the dub and subtitle script is Genshiken... and Genshiken's dub is PAINFUL, whereas the other above-mentioned dubs range from great to FANTASTIC (to the point that shows like R.O.D. the TV and School Rumble are honestly better watched in English, IMHO).

Simply put, I just consider remaining completely accurate to the original script to be a BAD IDEA. In my mind, it's bad localization, plain and simple... if I ran a localization company, I would severely reprimand any translator or editor who tried to pull crap like that.

And bear in mind, I'm ALSO a professional translator and editor (I've done mostly editing, sure, but I'd say 20% of what I've done since starting my job here has been translation, including work here and there on Ys Seven, Oath in Felghana, Chronicles, and even a file or two for Sora no Kiseki!). And yes, this kind of stuff DOES fly. It flies very well, in fact!

So yeah... don't try to pull the "I'm a professional" card with me, please. I'm a professional too, and I'm sorry, but you're wrong when you say that the industry doesn't allow for these things you're condemning. It very definitely does!

I also disagree with your condemnation of inserting references or jokes. Going overboard with it like Working Designs did? Yeah, OK, that's not cool. But a couple here and there, when the reference is basically saying the same thing the Japanese said? Absolutely fine. As long as the end result has the same basic feel OVERALL as the original work, and the ideas the original work attempts to convey are conveyed without difficulty, I consider that to be a very, very good localization.

Short version: Individual lines are irrelevant. It's the overall thought and feel of an entire scene that matters.

I also think it's far more disrespectful to the original work to translate literally, actually. When you translate loosely, you're essentially presenting the work in the best possible light, making it sound as natural and dynamic in English as it did in its original Japanese. When you translate literally, however, you are doing the original work a disservice by relegating it to sound rough and stilted merely because of inherent incompatibilities between the two languages. One could even argue that you're doing a disservice to the Japanese language in general by being literal!

Basically, it sounds like you and I just have different approaches to localization. And neither is wrong, objectively speaking... but subjectively, I believe your approach to be deeply flawed, and I can't imagine the work you produce following such strict guidelines would read well in English at all. I have to wonder if you work for a recent U.S. anime distributor who shall remain nameless (but who almost always release subtitled-only DVDs of their shows), as I've found a lot of their recent DVD translations to be extraordinarily subpar due to an over-emphasis on literal translation. I love that they bring over the shows they bring over, don't get me wrong... and I'll support them to the ends of the Earth... but they definitely need to loosen up and take a cue from the dub scripts of the shows I mentioned above, or from certain select fan-subtitlers. Otherwise, they're just going to become known as "those guys who bring over great shows, but give them really mediocre translations."

Also, it is indeed the contracting company's prerogative to say, "We insist upon you translating our script literally"... but to the best of my knowledge, that's NEVER actually happened in the entire history of this company. And I've only ever heard of it happening to other publishers with ONE Japanese developer, whom we've all basically sworn never to work with because of horror stories we've heard about them being ludicrously anal.

We stand for quality translations... and as far as I'm concerned, that means LIBERAL translations. Because there's simply no such thing as a quality LITERAL translation from Japanese to English.

Anyway, moving on to other specific things from your reply...



I don't even really know what you're talking about, to be honest. As far as I'm aware, most anime dubbers don't pay attention to the mouth flaps AT ALL, oftentimes either allowing them to be mismatched OR rearranging the frames (or something like that) so that the mouth flaps match the newly-created dub script lines. (The latter seems highly unlikely to me, but I've heard that from multiple sources, and I've witnessed numerous DVDs where the mouth movements of characters APPEAR to be different when you're listening to the dub track versus the original Japanese audio. It's all hearsay, and I've never worked with this particular side of the industry, though, so I can't say for certain how accurate this is.)

Also, I resent your condemnation of fansubbers, as I GOT MY START IN FAN-SUBTITLING. I've even included AVI episodes that I subtitled alongside my resume when applying for jobs involving the Japanese language! Nobody seemed to mind. And I did those translations pretty much everywhere -- in Japan, in my mom's house, while visiting friends, in my apartment after work, etc. No basements were ever involved, however.

Also, somehow I doubt that "Ashita no Nadja" has only ONE typo in the entire translated series considering the fact that the episode I linked to was the only one I checked on YouTube and I only clicked around on the time bar about 2 or 3 times before I found it. What are the chances that I found the only glaring error in the whole series like that? I think you know as well as I do that the probability of that is like one in a trillion or maybe even higher.

I never said there was only one typo in the series. I just said that I never saw ANY typos while watching, which means there really can't be very many (as I'm constantly in editor mode, even when relaxing!). I believe you did, coincidentally, happen upon a bit of a rarity by finding that. I challenge you to find even a dozen other typos in the entire 50-episode series. Heck, I challenge you to find even a half-dozen!

(But even if you DO find more than that, I urge you to look past typos and take in the translation as a whole. Because THAT'S what I like... the general feel of the dialogue is PERFECTLY suited to that show, and it's clear a lot of time and effort went into every episode's translation.)

And finally... you're starting to get a bit of a "holier than thou" tone to your writing again, MegaLink. Watch what you say, please. Those fansubber comments came dangerously close to trolling/flaming, and a few of your other comments also seemed to suggest a sense of "I am a professional, therefore my word is final" (thus my comments reminding you that I, too, am a professional!), which is also dangerously close to trolling.

Argue your opinions as opinions, please. Don't try to pass them off as fact. And don't try to belittle those who think differently than you. I know it's tough when you're arguing something you're passionate about, but do try to remain as dry and non-judgmental as you can in our future discussions, please.

And yes, I know it's hypocritical of me to say this when I often do the exact same thing. But I also try very hard to AVOID doing that. I tried very hard in this response, for example, and I think I succeeded -- but if I slipped up, please don't hesitate to let me know, and I'll edit this message accordingly.

-Tom

Wyrdwad,

Before you say you are a professional, please ask yourself the following questions:
1. What certifications do I have?
2. Where am I certified?

If you have not noticed by now, I will politely inform you that certifications DO matter in the field of translation. Why? Because that is how a company, institution, or whoever you are working with knows you are good, and not just self-professed like most fan translators are. Are you JLPT certified? With which translator associations are you certified? If you are not, then you are not considered a professional. That is a fact. Do we let doctors practice medicine without being certified? We all know the answer to that one. Just because you work at a game company, and just because you have done fan translations, that does not equal being a professional. That is how our world works, and if you think about it logically, it is a good thing that we have such things as certifications.

I obviously do not know XSEED's translator roster, but let me tell you this: Most of the people doing translation for Square-Enix, for example, have numerous certifications as well as some serious education under their belt. Check out the credits the next time you play their games and look up their translators on the net. Their resumes are pretty impressive to say the least.

Anyway, here are some of the rules that certified translators adhere to, so let me mark a few important ones for you:

Code of Professional Conduct and Business Practices

I. As a Translator or Interpreter, a bridge for ideas from one language to another and one culture to another, I commit myself to the highest standards of performance, ethical behavior, and business practices.
A. I will endeavor to translate or interpret the original message faithfully, to satisfy the needs of the end user(s). I acknowledge that this level of excellence requires:
1. mastery of the target language equivalent to that of an educated native speaker,
2. up-to-date knowledge of the subject material and its terminology in both languages,
3. access to information resources and reference materials, and knowledge of the tools of my profession,
4. continuing efforts to improve, broaden, and deepen my skills and knowledge.
B. I will be truthful about my qualifications and will not accept any assignments for which I am not fully qualified.

Now I want you to think about this for a moment: I will endeavor to translate or interpret the original message faithfully, to satisfy the needs of the end user(s). That means we give our clients' work the utmost respect. Putting phrases from another company's games into your clients' games means that whoever the translator is, lacks creativity, and is using purloined ideas. If you do that in school in America, we call it "plagiarism." If you do that in Japan, we call it "盗作."

On one hand, I can completely understand using cultural equivalents which are ingrained into our own culture to present certain ideas in an understandable way to the reader--and there are countless ways to do that--but on the other hand, unnecessarily taking someone else's ideas, passing them off as our own, and then making money off of them is something that is unacceptable for professionals. What I mean by this, is that the majority of gamers probably would not know that the "dust" line came from a Castlevania game, no permission was granted by Konami to use it, and of course, no credit or compensation was given to Konami for the use of the text. Does that make sense?

Now I want you to think about this for a moment: mastery of the target language equivalent to that of an educated native speaker. This is where I constantly shake my head because 99.999% of fan translators are not at that level. If a translator is really educated and really understands the Japanese language (or whatever language they are translating from for that matter), they will not need to borrow ideas from others, obviously because they can produce them internally.

Anyway, I do not think you really want me to go through "Ashita no Nadaj" and rip AnimeCoalition's translation apart. If there are really like 50+ episodes (which means there is a substantial amount of dialogue to look at), I promise you I will find a lot more than just a dozen mistranslations and grammatical errors. If you are really so confident that I cannot find a mere 6 mistakes, I can waste my time and scrutinize every line of text in every episode if you want to wager something. However, realistically, I would hate you to lose anything on a guaranteed losing wager like that--it just would not be fair to you because, for one, you did not do the translation, and two, you would be taking a substantial risk based on someone else's work. I think we can agree that would not be a wise decision. Besides, gambling is probably never a good idea, unless it is in a video game like Dragon Quest, right?

I also took a look at Episode 1 of Hell Girl Part 3/3 and I am not seeing the "totally" different script you are talking about. It seems pretty much the same with a word or two altered in some of the sentences, give or take, due to the mouth flaps. I have not seen the original Japanese for that anime, but the dubbing and what you said is supposed to appear for the subtitles, both look fine to me.

Lastly, here is what you asked for--something in context:

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[Skeletore has a boner]

Actually there is no standardized certification agencies in *most* countries, including the US.

There are agencies that will claim to make you a certified translator in the US...about 20 of them, all with varies levels of standards and expectations.

As the person who had the final say in who we hired for my division at Capcom, I can tell you I never once cared about any types of certification. JLPT is nice, but in the US since there is no standard agency there IS NO STANDARD. So all of them are meaningless from the perspective of an employer. Same with most countries, Even France who has much more strict language regulations than Japan doesn't have a standardized test for certification.

Japan is the exception, not the rule.

[Ascended Mermaid]

I'm still trying to figure out where he comes from. His username rings a bell but I can't place it.

[Peytral]

Oh, so he's not just an elaborate troll?

[Peytral]

At this point, I don't really think that's up for debate. XD

[Incog Neato]

SO BACK TO FAN TRANSLATIONS .... XD XD XD

I really DO think quite a few of them could use editors that know the English language. :B

There's actually some groups out there that do speed translations for the sake of having them up for the public to read. There's even a notice at the top of the 1st page of the comic that reads "You are your own proofreader".

That makes me frown. :((((((((((

[Ascended Mermaid]

It disturbs the peace, and is quite an elaborate disagreement. From beginning to end, all 10 of your posts have been incredibly long, drawn out, and serve no purpose that has been for the good of our community. Therefore, megalink101, I must ask that you change your tune; please, write something within the harmony of our community. There are other ways to involve yourself in and be a part of our community, without being so argumentative. I do not wish to lock threads, or moderate posts, or otherwise ban people -- but if you do not wish to conduct yourself appropriately, then I will do what I must.

[RyuKisargi]

To be honest, with the attitude Falcom and XSeed has taken to them, I'm hoping other companies either get wise and do the same thing, or see that some games are simply meant to be played.

I'm fairly sure we would've never seen Dragon Quest 5 US if the fan translation didn't exist. Nor 6, when it comes out.

There's also the Tales series, the translations I've played (( SNES, PSX )) were really well done, as well as the one for Seiken Densetsu 3.


It really is too bad the Tales series is getting shafted here. There's what... *checks*

Well over a dozen titles from the Tales series simply never came here. Granted some of them are remakes and whatnot, but. (( I want Narakiri Dungeon X to be released here, damnit. I know for a fact that Bamco just flat-out isn't interested in bringing them here. ))

Actually, I can't think of another series that hasn't been bringing stuff here. I had thought we'd never see another Ys title here, but three announced at once was pretty big news for me.

[Peytral]

They're probably too paranoid or something. As far as I know, they're just making horrible business decisions, and don't realize how much faith the fans have lost in them just because they won't bring the games over.