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Post by HJ on Feb 9, 2010 14:03:23 GMT -5
FFVII has basically admitted to having a terrible plot by creating movies and prequels and what have you to flesh out characters. "Hey guys, I sucked too much the first time, so how about you pay an additional 50 bucks for this game so you can care about my characters like I always wanted you to?" Really though, I just thought the plot went straight to hell after you leave Midgar. Up until then it was pretty exciting, the Shinra infiltration was epic, even. Political intrigue galore! But then some guy wants to destroy the world instead. Oh, THAT'S new. And then the game creates a main character conflict by telling you Cloud is a part of Sephiroth or something? Say what? Oh, but don't bother explaining that properly, it's so cool that we'll just naturally accept it. Oh, and hey, as an additional twist, let's say the villain was just sleeping in a crystal while some creature pretending to be him was wreaking havoc? At least that's probably what most people will conclude since this is utterly nonsensical and never properly explained. Oh, but don't take it the wrong way. I mean, you don't really have to bother explaining it. Thankfully Wikipedia is there to do your job. It's not like that destroys all my motivation to fight this guy, either. He does kills some chick who didn't get fleshed out nearly enough for me to care about her... Wait, is that even the actual Sephiroth? The whole damn thing was so messy and confusing I forgot? The beyond terrible pacing didn't help either. But wait, what's this about not caring about Aeris? Cue Crisis Core! I could go on, but seriously, what a joke. The worst part is that CC was actually pretty enjoyable, and the story (aside from Genesis and Angeal who failed as characters) was actually passable. At least it managed to make me care about the characters. Even Aeris, whom I'd sworn to always dislike. Even if FFVII tried new things, why should anyone care? Trying and failing isn't better than succeeding at sticking to a tried and tested formula. Seems like a lot of people cut it slack because of that. That might work as an excuse for some gameplay flaws, but not for plot.
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Post by HJ on Feb 9, 2010 17:42:55 GMT -5
A game that demands you to go out of your way to find obscure and hidden side-quests, and then complete them to even have a chance of understanding the MAIN story? That's just terrible to me. Side quests can add to the story, no doubt, but relying so heavily on them to make the plot go from nonsensical mess to awesome is just bad if you ask me. Either way, if this is your only defense for the game, I certainly don't see how you can regard FFX's story as messy. Unappealing to you, perhaps, but messy, while claming otherwise of FFVII's plot and holding it in such a high regard? That's logically inconsistent. I don't even believe that's an opinion.
I also thought most of the characters were pretty one-dimensional. Did Red XIII even have a personality, for example? Vincent's backstory was good, and Rufus was a good character. Barret was also a decent character, though the localized dialogue makes it hard not to loathe him. How funny, though, most of Disc 2 struck me as worthless filler garbage. The entirety of Disc 1 was passable, and certain parts were even very exciting, like Midgar and the Nibelheim flashback. The town in flames, the eerie music, the empty and haunting mansion? Incredibly atmospheric. Why couldn't the rest of the game be this good?
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Feb 9, 2010 17:53:58 GMT -5
I certainly didn't think those things were out of my way -- but then again, I'm an explorer. I don't RUSH through my games; I savor them, in spite of my moniker. FFVII is not for rush gamers.
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Post by HJ on Feb 9, 2010 18:00:05 GMT -5
Hey, I explored. I even got that freaking gold chocobo so I could get Knights of the Round. Worst sidequest ever, btw. By a large margin. *rage*
I also found Wutai, but Yuffie was still a shallow and boring character. She never progressed past "lol materia whore" for me. Also, I don't take notes about games, because I don't expect them to make up some intricate information matrix I have to decode to make sense out of it after I'm actually done with the game. Sure, you could argue I should have just remembered it all, but I tend to forget dreadfully boring stuff rather fast. It's why I suck at math. Midgar and Nibelheim stuck with me, though, because they weren't boring like most of the rest of the game.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Feb 9, 2010 18:10:01 GMT -5
*nods* Therefore, we formulate what we call an "opinion". To whom was the game boring? To whom was the game exciting? It's an opinion. Nothing to get worked up about.
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Post by HJ on Feb 9, 2010 18:12:06 GMT -5
Of course, I just figured it was implied that we're discussing opinions. Though I still can't say I see any manner of reason in attacking FFX's plot for being messy if you say FFVII's isn't. >_> The only thing I get worked up over is the dreadful memory of that chocobo sidequest, btw.
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Post by HJ on Feb 9, 2010 18:26:49 GMT -5
Well, at least this sheds some light on why you like FFVII so much. I can't say I agree with most of the questions being answered simply throughout the main game, but eh. I never quite got what was up with the whole "Sephiroth was napping inside a crystal the whole time"-deal, for example. Well, you know I disagree strongly about FFX, so I'll just leave that at: I feel everything you feel about FFVII, except I feel it for FFX.
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Post by Mutagene on Feb 9, 2010 18:43:00 GMT -5
Geez Wyrdy, remind me never to bring my game plot anywhere near you.
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Post by Varion on Feb 9, 2010 18:44:14 GMT -5
^ Well, TBH most all JRPGs are in one way or another a child of Ultima 1-4; after all, the genre was created when the Japanese failed to understand what D&D was all about... Thankfully, because D&D is horrible. And I'll leave the FF7 discussion alone because while I remember thoroughly enjoying it to the point of borderline obsession, I haven't played it in a looong time.
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Post by HJ on Feb 9, 2010 18:44:26 GMT -5
I might give it another chance someday. I won't deny I played it in a hectic time in my life, even though I didn't just blaze through the main story. It'll certainly be a while before I replay it, though, if I ever do. Maybe I'll wait for the inevitable remake instead.
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Post by Varion on Feb 9, 2010 18:55:22 GMT -5
I might give it another chance someday. I won't deny I played it in a hectic time in my life, even though I didn't just blaze through the main story. It'll certainly be a while before I replay it, though, if I ever do. Maybe I'll wait for the inevitable remake instead. No remake, too expensive to do HD towns
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Post by HJ on Feb 9, 2010 18:58:17 GMT -5
Geez Wyrdy, remind me never to bring my game plot anywhere near you. Why? Even if we disagree on FF7 (and/or FF8 and/or FFX), that doesn't mean we'd disagree on EVERY PLOT EVER. Unless your game plot involves the coincidental amnesia of a large group of people who grew up together, but forgot - except for one of them, who remembered, but decided not to say anything, despite it being WHOLLY RELEVANT TO EVERYTHING. In that case, you can keep your game plot. -Tom I think the two of us and our FF-dissimilarities are great proof that it's entirely possible to disagree on one thing (quite strongly, even) and agree on another. Since we both like Ys, Half-Minute Hero, etc. Edit: I might want a remake to fix up the dialogue, but really, also to fix up the graphics. They're... really ugly. To the point where it starts to hamper my ability to immerse myself.
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Post by Varion on Feb 9, 2010 19:04:10 GMT -5
I worry about a remake, anyway. As I've said many times, Nomura's character designs look much better when there are technical limitations holding him back. Redo FF7 using unrestricted Nomura designs, though, and I think I'd suddenly be much less entranced. -Tom Everyone would just complain no matter how a remake turned out, anyway. Change the slighest little detail and someone would rage about it ruining the game, don't change anything and someone would rage about it being. I mean just look at the reactions to Sonic 4, Sega finally give the fans what they've wanted for over a decade, and what's the reaction? "His eyes are the wrong colour!" "His shoes are funny!" "I don't want to just play as Sonic, Sonic 1 was boring!" Personally I'm okay with Nomura's designs (wouldn't say I like them, but I vastly prefer his art to Amano's at least) so I'd quite like one, as the graphics have not aged well at all, but eh.
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Post by HJ on Feb 9, 2010 19:10:07 GMT -5
LOL, there are people who say that? Even though I lurked on the Gamefaqs boards a bit, I've yet to stumble upon anything so horribly stupid.
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Post by ShinGundam on Feb 9, 2010 19:21:41 GMT -5
I might give it another chance someday. I won't deny I played it in a hectic time in my life, even though I didn't just blaze through the main story. It'll certainly be a while before I replay it, though, if I ever do. Maybe I'll wait for the inevitable remake instead. No remake, too expensive to do HD towns Nomura laughs at this.
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Post by Varion on Feb 9, 2010 19:22:16 GMT -5
LOL, there are people who say that? Even though I lurked on the Gamefaqs boards a bit, I've yet to stumble upon anything so horribly stupid. Yep. I dunno about gamefaqs, but on the official blog, neogaf and the like there's tons of that kind of stuff. The other big complaints are the episode 1 in the title (never mind that they already explained it's 'episode 1' in the sense that Sonic & Knuckles was 'Sonic 3 Episode 2') and Eggman instead of Robotnik, when the game will almost definitely have no text. Sigh.
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Post by schlagwerk on Feb 9, 2010 19:31:03 GMT -5
LOL, there are people who say that? Even though I lurked on the Gamefaqs boards a bit, I've yet to stumble upon anything so horribly stupid. I've heard second-hand about people complaining about Sonic 4 using the post-Sonic Adventure character design, but have not seen any of original posts. But I have seen people complain that the play controls in the original Mega Man series were poor. Wtf
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Post by HJ on Feb 9, 2010 19:46:08 GMT -5
Oh lord. Hm, I wonder what Alix Henriol has to say about Sonic 4...
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 9, 2010 22:23:31 GMT -5
There's a world of difference between exploring details for added benefit, and having to spend hours grinding to find out key points of the core story. If what HJ claims is true, then we have one of those on our hands. Frankly, I was put off by pretty much everything in FFVII rather quickly, and didn't have time to run into that problem. I'd say it's cool when side-quests tie into the main story in some way, but making completing the sidequests a requirement for enjoying the story is rather lame. For example, the Glow in Fallout giving a full backstory to the FEV virus is a cool addition, but it also awesome because the area is a fun challenge with a great backstory of its own, and with added benefits of loot etc. It would be extremely lame if one had to spend those few hours and get nothing but a Holodisk explaining why the mutants hunt humans - and if that were the only place in the game that discussed it. Pfft, I'd probably get angry at this obvious troll if you didn't explicitly show that you have no idea wtf you're talking about. Certainly, taking the RPG genre and turning it from "a game based on involving player-environment interaction with variable story with a complex and realistic combat system" into "medival-styled repetitive push-this-button-to-win something with stats" certainly made it a lot better
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Feb 9, 2010 22:32:48 GMT -5
Seriously?! FFVII does NOT have that problem. All he means is that he doesn't like to travel; seriously, it's all about getting from point A to point B, and then you discover something.
Now if it were something as bad as say Sonic and the Secret Rings, where you had to level up ALL THE WAY to the maximum level, BEFORE you could actually ENJOY the gameplay itself -- I'd understand. I still don't understand Secret Rings fanboys...
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