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Post by ParanoiaDragon on Feb 9, 2010 22:33:56 GMT -5
You're right, the FF series did change after the PS1-era. It stopped sucking. ... and then began again after FFX. How could you not like the 3D Mario games? SMG was amazing, it's probably in my top 5 of all time favorites. As for Zelda, I disagree. Four Swords Adventures was pretty decent, but Majora's Mask is just better. Twilight Princess... eh, I liked it, but it wasn't anything to truly write home about. Either way, by 3D Dot Game Heroes if you want old school Zelda. 3D Dot Game Heroes....I have it preordered already As for Mario, I haven't yet played Galaxy(waiting for it to hit 20 bucks..if it ever does!?!) so I can't speak for that one, but, while I don't think SM64 or Sunshine suck, I don't care about them like the 2D games. When NSMB came out for DS, it was a breath of fresh air for me. Oh, & 4 Swords, I haven't played thru it, infact, I have a small backlog of Zelda games, but I always seem to enjoy the 2D ones as opposed to Ocarina, Majora, Wind Waker, or Twilight. As for FF, as old school as I be, I actually started with FF7, & then did some backtracking, though, honestly, I have quite a backlog of FF games, even though I own all of them but I prefer the older stuff in general, especially since it seems like from 10 on up, they don't have a world map, though, I haven't played thru any of the other games all the way yet, maybe I'm wrong? Although I have no intention of ever playing 11, I'm not into MMOs.
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Post by HJ on Feb 9, 2010 22:40:19 GMT -5
Seriously?! FFVII does NOT have that problem. All he means is that he doesn't like to travel; seriously, it's all about getting from point A to point B, and then you discover something. Now if it were something as bad as say Sonic and the Secret Rings, where you had to level up ALL THE WAY to the maximum level, BEFORE you could actually ENJOY the gameplay itself -- I'd understand. I still don't understand Secret Rings fanboys... No, I like to travel and explore in general. But I don't comb every corner of the map down to it's last polygon. :S I certainly won't budge on my opinion that the story is sub-par without doing the sidequests, though. So it is more out of necessity than "added benefit" to me.
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 9, 2010 22:56:20 GMT -5
Yeah, 10 up are claustrophobic dungeon crawls. Not sure if FFX still had the map or not.
Not everything older is better, but I do rather prefer the stuff from the "golden age" of RPGs than the crap released to day that claims to be "RPG". New-gen seems to be doing heaps better with FPS and adventure games.
Like I said, I haven't experienced it myself. I was put off by other things in FF7 first. Although, I can very much understand hating to travel in FF games, because, well, high-frequency mundane REs are extremely annoying and are probably the worst gaming design idea anyone ever came up with.
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 10, 2010 0:52:54 GMT -5
Well, that's not what HJ claimed. Anyhow, I did make it clear that I was writing the post based on the posts by you two, because FFVII's juvenile storytelling (whether cause of poor translation or poor writing in general, I will never know) among other things put me off before I could get far enough to see how it pieces together.
But anyway, back to the topic of the thread. I still don't see why there's a need to "return to FFVII style" for FF games. The only real major thing FFVI-VII introduced was an increased emphasis on the story, and a slightly more mature setting and problems. As far as I can see, the FF games still pretty much hold to that strategy *shrug*.
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Post by ShinGundam on Feb 10, 2010 3:38:48 GMT -5
The loss of Overworlds is an unfortunate concession in the PS2 era for FF series . All FF games post-FF10 lacks Overworld. Aside from FF Versus XIII and agito XIII(both are spin-offs) he said there is loading problem and limitations so the overworld works( World -> Region -> Area) is an indication of how he want to break up the world into multiple zones . he showed some pics of it i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/Kamoohiyazada/Storage/FFVsXIII/Versus_cloudmsgpg73_sm.jpg
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 10, 2010 8:08:59 GMT -5
Maybe you're just losing touch with the popular culture, yo Stop dwelling in the past and GET ON WITH IT! lol I can't really speak much for overworld vs no overworld since I haven't spent enough time playing FFX-FFXII (no PS2 here), but seeing how tons of other games do just as fine without, I don't think that's something I personally would be concerned about. After all, the "Overworld" in FF1-9 has mostly been empty with only a few locations of interest outside of the main quest, so I don't feel like we'd be losing that much. As for the style, I'm not familiar enough with FFX, MMOs suck anyway, but I find the FFXII/FFTA/FFTA2 setting rather appealing, probably my favourite out of all FF settings except MAYBE FF3NES. I don't really know why, but I guess the fact that the world is alive and colourful, and does not really blatantly rip off any other known settings has something to do with it. I also rather like the middle-Eastern twist to it.
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 10, 2010 10:34:50 GMT -5
Well, I enjoy having a world map to get me around (hopefully also area maps so that I don't have to walk around blindly all the time), maybe to travel to places and stuff. I'm not that big of sandbox-style worlds though, it's not like every damn place on the world map has to be explorable.
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 10, 2010 10:50:42 GMT -5
Old-school JRPG overworld is more or less "sandbox". I mean, you can walk on pretty much every inch of terrain and look for stuff, occasionally there's stuff to be found. It's, hmmm, more like a compromise between a full sandbox and a world map, I guess. What I'm saying is, if there's so little to be explored, we lose nothing by getting rid of the overworld and replacing it with a classic world map. I mean, I guess there's SOME charm in marching around the globe on foot in 5 minutes, but it's a gimmick and nothing more, not to mention that the proportions require a bit too much suspension of disbelief.
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 10, 2010 11:55:22 GMT -5
Whatever you're used to, I guess. My gaming experience started with games with huge world maps, those maps being only "areas" of the "gaming world", truly conveying the feeling of traveling through the wilderness for hours to get to the next destination, emphasizing the "realistic" size of the world. You know, you being a part of the world rather than the world spinning around you.
It's all about what you're used to.
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 10, 2010 12:07:47 GMT -5
Narcissist
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Post by Ashurei on Feb 10, 2010 12:34:58 GMT -5
I think both methods of travel work well in their respective games. I acutally think the loss of airships might be a good thing, but only because my roommate has too much fun flying the Highwind sideways and laterally in FFVII. And when I try to tell him where something is he just flies in circles. Sideways. So I jokingly told him I was glad FFX and on lacked airships and overworlds, simply because he was having too much fun dicking around, haha. In regards to this topic that I've never replied to, there's nothing I can think of that I particularly wish would go back to its roots. I do think the old school RPGs have their quirks and I do enjoy the style, but I don't particularly think that that's all the series should be. I like things that are always evolving. Change can be good or bad, gotta give them credit for trying, though. I liked 10 and 12 feeling as expansive as they were. I enjoy the cohesiveness of an explored world to an overworld, just as much as I liked playing through the classic overworlded games. When I have a friend trying to talk me out of FF 13 because there's no exploration, that's when I think some people are being a little unreasonable. I guess I just never thought exploration was such an integral part of the RPG experience. There are so many other factors. I do wish some other things would go back to their roots though, yes. I was throwing a fit the other day about how online homework is a complete and total mess what with ALL of the technological problems that arise out of it. I don't like doing a randomly generated math question 4 times because of it not liking my (valid) syntax, not doing it the way it (arbitrarily) wanted me to (without noting that I should), server errors or my Uni's wifi cutting out. I do wish homework would return to pencil and paper. Very much, yes. Shit, I went a tangent. Uh, homework is now a game... for the PC. YEAH. That's technically true. Hahahaaaaa.... >_________>
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 10, 2010 12:43:17 GMT -5
PnP HW is long gone, man, keep up with the times I think from what I heard about FFXIII, it's not so much the lack of exploration that people criticize, but the extreme linearity that even a corridor shooter couldn't beat. You basically keep walking straightforward all the time. If the screenshots I've seen ring true, then I'd rather dump FFXIII for a game that has well-designed dungeons.
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Post by Ashurei on Feb 10, 2010 13:03:38 GMT -5
It feels weird to be old-fashioned, preferring written work. ... NO SEE THAT'S THE DUMB THING. You still have to scribble down all your work! The websites for homework just want the answers! I'd much rather turn in my calculus scribbles than take the time to deal with the website's garbage. BUH, I say. BUH! > In regards to 13, I'm guessing that's just something I'll have to figure out for myself. I liked what Varion and Fai had to say about it when they played the J version, and they were pretty objective about it, too! Ciriticisms are just as valid, though. I am going in expecting linearity, and I am okay with this. I don't plan on reading into it too much more than I have - I'm getting it regardless of what anyone says, good or bad.
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Post by schlagwerk on Feb 10, 2010 13:08:15 GMT -5
FFXIII plays like the second disc of Xenogears. Not that that was bad because the story was interesting and the combat system was fun (a little less so in the Gears), but in Xenogears it was jarring because you had freedom and then suddenly were stuck sitting in a chair with portraits and a cross pendant behind you. Now FFXIII starts off with the linear gameplay to speed along the story telling and then opens up a bit near the end. I don't mind it and yet again it's another experiment in RPGs by Square. I'm still looking forward to FFXIII, but damnit why is the US the only region to not get a special edition bundle?!
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Post by Ashurei on Feb 10, 2010 13:12:42 GMT -5
I thought I heard something to the effect of US gamers not being very receptive to the special edition of XII, so they nixed the idea altogether for us this go-'round. :/
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Post by Mutagene on Feb 10, 2010 23:10:34 GMT -5
To be honest, linearity is something that has NEVER bothered me in a game. In fact, I'd much rather take a game with actual story progression and goals that is actually kinda fun like FF13 over a shitfest sandbox crawler like GTA. I have never liked a single 'sandbox' game ever. They're not fun, they're not rewarding, they're just confusing piles of donkey doo.
I miss the days when games just had plots to the effect of "Hey, you see those demons over there? Go rape them anally with your ridiculously oversized plasma gun. Then fight Satan."
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 10, 2010 23:23:33 GMT -5
^ You know, there's things in between too. Besides, "sandbox" isn't necessarily the antonym of "linear". Sandbox is a type of game design that goes beyond using environments open to exploration, it's a gamestyle that bases the game ENTIRELY on exploration. IMO, sucks just like all extremes. I don't really want to run around an open environment without an aim, that's dumb. But I also don't want to run in a straight line. A linear pull of the plot may be necessary, but that doesn't equal linear environments. If I get dumped in an unknown area, I expect to have to explore it a bit, get caught in a few traps, discover some secrets, not just storm through and kill the boss at the end.
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 11, 2010 4:15:59 GMT -5
There's two levels of linearity - gameplay and story (or maybe 3 if we separate gameplay and dungeon design). Storywise all JRPGs I've ever heard of or played myself are on obvious rails - there's bound to be exceptions, but they're rare as far as I'm aware, unless we include VN/SLG hybrids. Therefor, all JRPGs are already "linear" in one way. Gameplay-wise, you're right, anything done well is good. Although I must admit I'm not a fan of sandbox games (mostly by bad associations with Bethesda games), unless the "sandbox" part is rather minor and well-executed like in Fallout 1-2. As much as I dislike too much sandbox, I completely loathe blunt linearity, as I see it as a sign of lack of imagination. I mean, I'm here to play a GAME, not watch an interactive movie, i.e. I want the game to respond to my actions somehow, beyond "you killed this monster yay". But, regardless how linear and silly it may be storywise, and how prohibitive in outer-world exploration (which I can still bear), bad dungeon design is a killer. Granted, I haven't played FFXIII and probably never will unless they decide to port it to PC, but tbh I can only think of a few dungeons in FF series that were actually well-made - like FFIX's upside-down castle, the last area of FFVIII, etc. You know, there need to be traps, dead ends, surprises, not just monsters and treasure. Here's an example of a game that's as linear as it can get, and here's one of my fav. dungeons: www.planetbaldursgate.com/iwd/walktrials/crypt.shtmlNote that when you walk in, only rooms 1, 6 and 7 are open and the rest of the doors are either hidden or locked. Yet you can still open the entire thing in about half an hour to get to your story objective - room 16, which has a puzzle based on pieces of a diary you discover throughout the module, not to mention hordes of monsters and some good loot. This crypt is delicious. When I look at maps from FFXIII posted online, it looks hopeless. Granted, people exaggerate as usual. But still, what happened to the great dungeon design we just recently saw in the Last Remnant? Got too caught up in graphical bloom and forgot to actually make a game out of it?
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 11, 2010 4:54:24 GMT -5
Maybe you should introduce him to some nice adventure games, or action games or something. He's clearly looking for his favourite game style in the wrong genre.
As for dungeon design specifically, I can't really justify linearity for anything other than arcade games. It's nothing but lazy.
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Post by ausdoerrt on Feb 11, 2010 5:41:22 GMT -5
Ohwell, I guess people have weird tastes. I don't see how anyone would explain how anything's actually good about the limited TB system of FF series, buch less with ATB. But I guess is "crappy JRPG" is considered a genre, then your friend will like it. I mean really, I have seen JRPGs have so much fun with their battle systems, I simply don't see why people keep coming back to the "keep pressing this button to win" FF-style battles.
Not, straight-line dungeons aren't excusable for anything than arcade games these days. Even corridor shooters have gameplay variety. It's like deliberately giving your game the replay value of 0.
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