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Post by ausdoerrt on Jan 19, 2010 7:56:04 GMT -5
And that would be your opinion. I beg to differ, though! I prefer short, sweet, simple battles over long, complex, well-planned battles. The quicker I can kill enemies, the better. Even if it's mindless, I don't care one bit, as long as it's FAST! That's why I like action RPGs so much. Actually, because of the on average higher encounter rates, the overall time spent on battles evens out somewhat. I also can understand the desire to make battles short and easy for a story-centered game. That's fine. But IIRC, the discussion with combat-centered games, which you claimed suck, but you say that just because you're not willing to accept the more involved combat systems that actually make combat-centered games work. Also, most APRGs suck because they're based on grinding. I mean, look at Diablo. Or worse yet, at the progressively more simplistic Diablo clones. or at MMOs like WOW. Grindgrindgrindgrindgrindgrindgrindgrindgrindgrindgrindgrindgrind........ Strangely, that sounds like it'd actually work. It's the random encounters that bug me in JRPG because it feels just like lazy game design, and they're usually ridiculously easy and boring. Upping the difficulty or increasing the # of boss battles is a decent idea. Also, I don't see how stats make things more complicated. JRPGs also have stats, it's just that stats don't matter. Making them matter reduces the influence of mindless grinding and luck on the battle outcome, thus making the game actually easier. Most systems aren't rocket science either, I don't see how they're difficult. Plus, it feels so much better to defeat an opponent easily through an inventive strategy rather than because you spent 10 extra hours grinding for levels. Why play something mindless when you could just stare at the wall for a while and get the same amount of entertainment. Or, you could actually go do something productive. Of course, as a guy who grew up on Black Isle games, HOMM III, Starcraft etc, I am biased, but so is everyone. See, RPG isn't 100% story. JRPG maybe, or maybe you should get a VN or a book to read. A good RPG is a combination of story and gameplay in the right proportion. Otherwise, if the story is the point then what's the reason to add crappy gameplay to it? Also, it has a VN-like element to it, because you should be able do make story-changing decisions. Traditionally, reacting to that would be the DM's job, but game designers have been trying to emulate that forever, to various degrees of success. Haven't really played any recent ones 'cept Last Remnant. Being a Square child it still suffers from the usual problems, but it's definitely an improvement over the usual FF formula. They should keep going in that direction. ######################## Also, completely off-topic. I'd suggest wyrd or any other devout JRPG fans to try this game: store.steampowered.com/sub/95/It has a JRPG-like combat system, with maybe a bit more number-crunching. But it also adds a completely Western-like TBS map action, with resource collecting and battling over key points and territory, as well as unit upgrade trees.
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Post by ausdoerrt on Jan 19, 2010 8:26:34 GMT -5
TBH, I usually group all Ys games, especially past-Napishtim, into the same category as Devil May Cry and such, despite them claiming to be RPG. It seems like some Japanese developers would stick that label on pretty much anything with a Western fantasy-like setting. But, they're action games through and through. Xanadu Nest and Seiken Densetsu are pretty much similar to Diablo-like roguelikes, but with a somewhat different skill system. I can't say I've seen a game that does NOT adjust experience gained relative to level of character. That's sort of a no-brainer by now. Not that it in itself denies grinding. I'd say, the relative influence of character level on success in battle is the most important factor. My favourite XP system in RPG is the one that awards more XP for progressing the story or fulfilling sidequests rather than for killing opponents. The most interesting in that respect was Vampire: Bloodlines, because it awards absolutely no experience for killing things. IMHO, pretty much any variation of random battles is lame. There should be a random element to keep the games fresh for replaying, but I like to have my encounters actually thought out by the devs to provide maximum entertainment. I'd say it's more fun to beat the same opponent with different strategy rather than vise versa. Also, FF8 encounter rate was low? As for the Dis2 game, iirc there's a free demo, it's well worth a try. "Number-crunching" means basically that the numbers assigned to attack and defense realistically reflect the actual damage inflicted, nothing else.
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Post by ausdoerrt on Jan 19, 2010 9:09:19 GMT -5
You're guessing wrong. If you actually read my post, I never said it was an RPG. It's a TBS that has some JRPG traits.
As for "creating one's avatar", that's sort of what roleplaying games exited for for a while now. And where they came from anyway.
Then you'd probably enjoy adventure games a lot more than WRPGs. Because that's sort of what JRPGs are as well if you think about it.
Glad to know there's exceptions. Sadly, my experience is limited to what can be played on PC, and hopefully at least partially translated to some language I can understand.
I can more or less fit that definition to about any game from STALKER the FPS to HOMM to Dreamfall, none of which even smell like RPG (well maybe a little). But at least from the Japanese game developers' standpoint, any game that has swords and monsters in it and involves saving the world in a w. fantasy setting is automatically an RPG. Can't agree that it's a correct definition.
Also, roguelikes are up to an argument whether they can be called RPG or not. I'd say I've seen an equal number of people take either side. I'd say later Ys games don't really qualify for roguelikes either, because they failed to evolve with the genre. Diablo is pretty much the definition of "roguelike" in post DOS era.
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Post by tancients on Jan 19, 2010 9:27:24 GMT -5
www.telltalegames.com/ is about as close to adventure games as you'll get these days. Though when I played the first episode of Monkey Island, I couldn't help but feel like they missed the adventure part of the game. At least they got the basic narrative and character down... Somewhere in my boxes I even have the actual diary from an otherworldly traveller who recoreded the adventures of the royalty of Daventry....was such a good read despite it being intended as a hint book. haha
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Jan 19, 2010 9:39:48 GMT -5
King's Quest 1 and 5 will always be THE definitive adventure games, in my book. I loved the King's Quest remake by "Tierra".
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Post by tancients on Jan 19, 2010 9:59:45 GMT -5
Never played the remake by Tierra. I personally preferred 4 more than 1. www.tsl-game.comsarien.net/ Messed with KQ1 just now, it's kind of shim-shod, but if you've never played it before it's not so bad.
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Post by tancients on Jan 19, 2010 10:01:27 GMT -5
I've played the first chapter of the new Monkey Island, and quite enjoyed it. Telltale Games are good peoples. They did the best they could've really been expected to do with the franchise, I think. It ain't easy resurrecting someone else's baby like that, after all. -Tom Really, my only complaint with the monkey island there, is that they gave you dialogue choices, that were worthless. And I don't mean "They didn't change the story" but rather, they didn't elicit any response or anything. He'd just say the line up to the point where they differed (Or say something completely different) and so the humor wasn't as interactive as the older Monkey Islands. I liked everything else, but this was just a personal gripe.
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Post by tancients on Jan 19, 2010 10:32:16 GMT -5
Ah, then I might have to buy it at some point when I can afford more than ramen every other day!
Also, I was just thinking (Because it's hard to translate when I'm having an asthma attack), you mentioned Valkyrie Chronicles.
Well, when (No IFs!) you do play Valkyrie Chronicles, you might be like me and switch it over to the Japanese for a playthrough just to compare. At the time, I thought it was a horrible translation job, because what was said in English was so vastly different than what was in the Japanese. However, after working and doing an actual translation for once, I'm coming to realize why they did it. The story as it is in English, is just as heartwarming, loving, and filled with emotion as the Japanese one is. Even if only the skeleton of the story is the same between the two.
And I dislike TBS games. The last one I enjoyed was Shining Force 2, before Valkyrie Chronicles. I can't even really get into FE's in terms of gameplay. But I love VC, a lot. The draw was the art direction, the hook was the characters, the sinker was how it all weaved together wonderfully well.
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Post by tancients on Jan 19, 2010 10:44:49 GMT -5
Honestly, that was the whole reason I wanted to listen to it in Japanese. I'm still trying to figure out this whole 'translation' thing. But they went with what I then thought was bad form. Complete paraphrasing and creative writing of the original sentence. But as you said, it was really natural and well-written that way. The end result was really well worth the presumed transgression, to that regard. There wouldn't have been a way to capture everything properly otherwise.
Unlike NISA translations where they not only get the character relations and story wrong, but the english too feels kind of off at points...
I'd much prefer the former!
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Post by schlagwerk on Jan 19, 2010 13:22:30 GMT -5
The talk of adventure games has reminded me of my backlog:
Sam & Max season 1 (I've only finished the first episode) Sam & Max season 2 Tales of Monkey Island 1 (was free during Talk Like a Pirate Day) Secret of Monkey Island SE (was half price during Talk Like a Pirate Day) Strong Bad's Cool Games for Attractive People episode 5 (was free during Burnination day?)
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Post by darkbulb on Jan 19, 2010 14:47:30 GMT -5
Diablo is the western take on the action RPG formula, and I really, really hate it. Blasphemy!! D2 is one of my all-time favorite games (then again, I also enjoyed the FATE games, Torchlight, etc and am a big Titan Quest fan)! To each his own of course
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Post by ausdoerrt on Jan 19, 2010 20:14:46 GMT -5
It CAN work. For example, Troika's TOEE. But then again, that game has probably the best executed TB battle system in gaming history.
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Post by darkbulb on Jan 19, 2010 21:50:21 GMT -5
I just can't get into dungeon-crawling for dungeon-crawling's sake. I want more story... or better yet, *a* story! Diablo has a story, not a super-elaborate one but I'd argue that it's as intricate, or more, compared to FFI, II, Ys I/II, etc The other thing with Diablo is the control scheme. I should NEVER have to use a mouse for movement in an action RPG. *Ever*. As some on here may recall, I absolutely refused to even PLAY Xanadu Next until Falcom released that patch that added gamepad support. Mouse movement belongs in adventure games ONLY... I disagree, I don't personally have any issue with mouse movement in most RPGs when its done a la TQ, D2, etc. What your sentence(s) above are missing is to clearly spell out that YOU don't want to use a mouse, that YOU think mouse movement belong, etc. Just a minor detail, but the way you write I can see how some people would take it as you are pretending to speak about things as if they were a fact.
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Jan 20, 2010 0:16:30 GMT -5
Fact: Mouse-movement should be optional, damn it! Opinion: I fucking HATE mouse controls! Statement: Fuck PC mice!
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Post by Ascended Mermaid on Jan 20, 2010 7:27:06 GMT -5
Thank you!
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Post by schlagwerk on Jan 20, 2010 20:20:09 GMT -5
Adding Metal Wolf Chaos to my list. I had completely forgotten about it until today.
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Post by schlagwerk on Jan 21, 2010 11:50:48 GMT -5
Yes. Because he is the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
I wish I had a way to play Japanese Xbox games without having to buy an original Xbox...
EDIT: After I receive and finish Lunar Silver Star Harmony, I think I'm gonna start playing .hack//G.U. I watched .hack//Roots a while back and that's like watching the first season of Gundam 00 without the second (ie the plot goes almost nowhere and it's just a big setup for the next part). All of a sudden the series is back in my head. I tried watching the Trilogy movie but it's pretty bad.. so I started watching just the cutscenes from the games on Youtube. That was better, but still lacking. So my only resort is to start playing the games and see how far I can make it before FFXIII comes out.
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Post by Mutagene on Jan 21, 2010 20:25:26 GMT -5
Pffffff. I have to buy an original Xbox to play the Otogi games. :/
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Post by AllenSmithee on Jan 22, 2010 19:38:44 GMT -5
I just played the demo for Bayonetta.
DO NOT WANT!
...
NEED!
Seriously, what is this? Coolest thing I have EVER done. In the world... It blew my away, my mind is blown away. There was music, and I seriously looked at the sea for like 20 minutes, hot damn. And even still, the awesome arrived harder, when I really started fighting.
If only the demo wasn't so damned abrupt!
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Post by Mutagene on Jan 22, 2010 22:30:53 GMT -5
Dude. The demo is NOTHING compared to the full game.
If you loved the demo, you will shit mountains when you get the full game. I paid full price for it and feel like I seriously ripped someone off.
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